Pathfinder 1E Paizo Annoucement!
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Badkarmaboy
First Post
1st- Reading Wolfspider defending Paizo cracks me up. For a couple posts the shoe had found the other foot..
2nd- Having spent some time reading the alpha rules, I can honestly say I wouldn't be all that interested in running Pathfinder even if I wasn't going 4E. They're touting total compatibility, but I'm not seeing it. Most of it looks similar, but different enough that you can't run existing 3.x as written. Read the conversion rules in the back. Sure you can do it, but it's another layer of work that I certainly don't have time for. Also, total compatibility is great to talk about now, but it doesn't sell supplements. Adventure paths are great and they do a great job at them, but once the ruleset is released in 2009 they'll want to move splatbooks and they can't do that if it's all just like what you've already got. In some ways it's similar to 3.0-3.5. Similar enough to be familiar, but different enough that you've got to adapt it.
3rd- How many folks are going to ding Paizo over "anime" influence? I have to admit, the race illos are pretty darn anime inspired! I've seen plenty of it in the Pathfinder mods (I was a subscriber until recently). I don't care myself, but I'm interested to see if folks will bring it up given the wotc anime furor.
4th- Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath...c'mon everyone, let's hear some catty remarks about Paizo's silly naming conventions! I kid, of course. I just thought those names were similar enough to some of the wotc naming patterns everyone loves to bag on that I'd point them out. Wotc's names never bugged me and neither do these for that matter.
2nd- Having spent some time reading the alpha rules, I can honestly say I wouldn't be all that interested in running Pathfinder even if I wasn't going 4E. They're touting total compatibility, but I'm not seeing it. Most of it looks similar, but different enough that you can't run existing 3.x as written. Read the conversion rules in the back. Sure you can do it, but it's another layer of work that I certainly don't have time for. Also, total compatibility is great to talk about now, but it doesn't sell supplements. Adventure paths are great and they do a great job at them, but once the ruleset is released in 2009 they'll want to move splatbooks and they can't do that if it's all just like what you've already got. In some ways it's similar to 3.0-3.5. Similar enough to be familiar, but different enough that you've got to adapt it.
3rd- How many folks are going to ding Paizo over "anime" influence? I have to admit, the race illos are pretty darn anime inspired! I've seen plenty of it in the Pathfinder mods (I was a subscriber until recently). I don't care myself, but I'm interested to see if folks will bring it up given the wotc anime furor.
4th- Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath...c'mon everyone, let's hear some catty remarks about Paizo's silly naming conventions! I kid, of course. I just thought those names were similar enough to some of the wotc naming patterns everyone loves to bag on that I'd point them out. Wotc's names never bugged me and neither do these for that matter.
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JoeGKushner
Adventurer
It'll be interesting to see what level of support they'll give 4e once the license, you know, actually becomes available.
I think WoTC simply waited too long for this and with no excuse. I know some will leap up and claim that 4e is the priority. But once again, it's not like this was something that snuck up one night and bit them in the ass. It's been an 800 lb gorillia in the room and their refusal to acknowledge it way ahead of time may have further repercussions if they don't do something "Soon."
On the other hand, I hope that part of the deal with Paizo being a publishing partner for Necromancer is that we get a 3.75 full color Tome of Horrors as well as a 4e Tome of Horrors.
Those predicting doom and gloom should realize that Paizo doesn't have to beat WoTC. They just have to do enough to have their own niche. As there are numerous games out there that have nothing to do with D20 like GURPS, Rolemaster, and Warhammer, as well as those OGL versions like True 20 and Conan, the market can support more than one game system.
I think WoTC simply waited too long for this and with no excuse. I know some will leap up and claim that 4e is the priority. But once again, it's not like this was something that snuck up one night and bit them in the ass. It's been an 800 lb gorillia in the room and their refusal to acknowledge it way ahead of time may have further repercussions if they don't do something "Soon."
On the other hand, I hope that part of the deal with Paizo being a publishing partner for Necromancer is that we get a 3.75 full color Tome of Horrors as well as a 4e Tome of Horrors.
Those predicting doom and gloom should realize that Paizo doesn't have to beat WoTC. They just have to do enough to have their own niche. As there are numerous games out there that have nothing to do with D20 like GURPS, Rolemaster, and Warhammer, as well as those OGL versions like True 20 and Conan, the market can support more than one game system.
catsclaw227
First Post
This is a bit sad for me, since I have been a big fan of their Pathfinder and Gamemastery line, but I am switching to 4e. I read the alpha rules, and I am concerned with some of the backwards compatibility issues. They have pumped up the base classes, but how will that stack up with all other 3.5 base classes from PHB 2, Bo9S, etc? Will these need to be altered to compete? Have they just introduced some powercreep to go with their simplifications?
I am a huge fan of Paizo. And I will buy up the Necro 4e titles, for sure, but I am afraid that I will cancel my Pathfinder Chronicles subscription, as well as my Pathfinder AP subscription when my Dungeon/Dragon credits run out.
They have great writers, great staff and great people. I just don't think this choice is right for me, and I am a collector of RPG stuff, so they'll lose about $400 a year from me (at the very least).
Also, to another point brought up earlier, I think they will likely compete more with other non-4e D&D clones than 4e.
One question, is their ruleset going to be completely OGL? Will other game companies be able to create content from it?
I am a huge fan of Paizo. And I will buy up the Necro 4e titles, for sure, but I am afraid that I will cancel my Pathfinder Chronicles subscription, as well as my Pathfinder AP subscription when my Dungeon/Dragon credits run out.
They have great writers, great staff and great people. I just don't think this choice is right for me, and I am a collector of RPG stuff, so they'll lose about $400 a year from me (at the very least).
Also, to another point brought up earlier, I think they will likely compete more with other non-4e D&D clones than 4e.
One question, is their ruleset going to be completely OGL? Will other game companies be able to create content from it?
I think this was a good choice on their part, but not for the reasons some have stated here.
With WotC abandoning 3.x for 4E and so many players apparently decrying that change, there would have eventually been some company that came out with sustained support for 3.x. It might as well be Paizo.
I have no particular love for their products (I've purchased none), but did enjoy the art in the free pdf. I disagree with many of the house rules they have chosen to use in their Pathfinder RPG. When you consider that most 3.x fans are refusing to go over because of the bump in powers, Paizo will not pick these players up when the dust settles. Just look at the bump in powers that the cleric and wizard get with their domain powers and school powers. These are essentially 3.x versions of 4E's powers. That's not the way to get the big corps' cast-offs.
With the discontinuing of 3.x and the changing availability of books supporting that system, Paizo should have done a bang up job formatting the SRD with great art, charge $5 for the pdf and continue making adventures and campaign setting for that system; not change the system so many people are screaming about wanting to continue playing.
By making the changes they apparently will, Paizo is cutting off the very fan base they are attempting to bring in.
With WotC abandoning 3.x for 4E and so many players apparently decrying that change, there would have eventually been some company that came out with sustained support for 3.x. It might as well be Paizo.
I have no particular love for their products (I've purchased none), but did enjoy the art in the free pdf. I disagree with many of the house rules they have chosen to use in their Pathfinder RPG. When you consider that most 3.x fans are refusing to go over because of the bump in powers, Paizo will not pick these players up when the dust settles. Just look at the bump in powers that the cleric and wizard get with their domain powers and school powers. These are essentially 3.x versions of 4E's powers. That's not the way to get the big corps' cast-offs.
With the discontinuing of 3.x and the changing availability of books supporting that system, Paizo should have done a bang up job formatting the SRD with great art, charge $5 for the pdf and continue making adventures and campaign setting for that system; not change the system so many people are screaming about wanting to continue playing.
By making the changes they apparently will, Paizo is cutting off the very fan base they are attempting to bring in.
Reaper Steve
Explorer
Bold! Audacious!
But ultimately, I think it will be remembered as a brave attempt...
I am a Pathfinder subscriber, and will continue to be in the short term. I was hoping that the Adventure Path #3 would be 4E but I expected not (with the lack of GSL and all) so I'll probably hang on at least through that.
But the Pathfinder Alpha pdf has proven to me that 3.5 is done. There are some great things in there... things I would have loved to have seen years ago. But ultimately they are patches on fallacies of the game that have been propagated through every edition. Their proposals makes some things better, but for me, they are not worth sticking with 3.5 and its fundamental flaws when 4E fixes those root problems.
A 3.5 derivative, while it may profit in the short-term, is ultimately a losing proposition. The customer base isn't going to grow. The 'Pathfinder RPG' will not be able to hold its own on the shelf next to D&D.
Of course, short term is better than no term.
Paizo has to do what it has to do. Although if I were in this position and in charge and elected not to go to 4E, I would not publish my own house-ruled 3.5, I would take my own hack at redesigning the game from the ground up while holding on to whatever principles I think 'make it D&D.' But it would not BE D&D... it would be a game carefully designed to appeal to fans of older editions of D&D, specifically 3.5.)
For instance, it's been too long coming that single digit HPs at first level--rolled randomly, no less--went the way of the dodo. Having the Pathfinder RPG bump a wizard HP from d4 to d6 is not near the fix required. (Yes, I read the sidebar and know there are other options. But those options are all based on an outdated trope.)
Now is definitely the time for a company seeking to sever their dependence on WotC/OGL/GSL to do so. But to do so, I think they must have their own stand alone system.
I wish them luck and I enjoy their products, but I suspect they have overestimated the 3.5 loyalty.
But ultimately, I think it will be remembered as a brave attempt...
I am a Pathfinder subscriber, and will continue to be in the short term. I was hoping that the Adventure Path #3 would be 4E but I expected not (with the lack of GSL and all) so I'll probably hang on at least through that.
But the Pathfinder Alpha pdf has proven to me that 3.5 is done. There are some great things in there... things I would have loved to have seen years ago. But ultimately they are patches on fallacies of the game that have been propagated through every edition. Their proposals makes some things better, but for me, they are not worth sticking with 3.5 and its fundamental flaws when 4E fixes those root problems.
A 3.5 derivative, while it may profit in the short-term, is ultimately a losing proposition. The customer base isn't going to grow. The 'Pathfinder RPG' will not be able to hold its own on the shelf next to D&D.
Of course, short term is better than no term.
Paizo has to do what it has to do. Although if I were in this position and in charge and elected not to go to 4E, I would not publish my own house-ruled 3.5, I would take my own hack at redesigning the game from the ground up while holding on to whatever principles I think 'make it D&D.' But it would not BE D&D... it would be a game carefully designed to appeal to fans of older editions of D&D, specifically 3.5.)
For instance, it's been too long coming that single digit HPs at first level--rolled randomly, no less--went the way of the dodo. Having the Pathfinder RPG bump a wizard HP from d4 to d6 is not near the fix required. (Yes, I read the sidebar and know there are other options. But those options are all based on an outdated trope.)
Now is definitely the time for a company seeking to sever their dependence on WotC/OGL/GSL to do so. But to do so, I think they must have their own stand alone system.
I wish them luck and I enjoy their products, but I suspect they have overestimated the 3.5 loyalty.
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Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
I gave the free PDF a skim, and these house rules look pretty good. I like how they've separated out combat feats, I like the skill changes (and the expansion of Perception to include smell, touch, and taste), I like the strong flavor of magic schools, and I like the WoW-inspired new look for the races (and the additional racial details, like Dwarves getting +2 to perception checks related to the sense of touch). Pathfinder seems much more granular than 3.5 and I dig that.
The art and layout are both FANTASTIC. Sarah Robinson did an excellent job in selecting existing pieces and commissioning new pieces from a bunch of skilled artists with different styles, yet consistent feel. Gorgeous product, especially given that it's an alpha doc.
And kudos to Paizo for the open playtest. I don't think an open playtest is a good idea for a brand new ruleset (you'd run into non-helpful feedback like "it's not like the old edition!"), but for improving a existing edition? Good choice.
It really is a cool-looking set of rules, and Paizo's enthusiasm and passion for the game is a treat. If I were at all interested in continuing with 3.5 I would totally playtest Pathfinder. I'm not; after nine years of the same game I'm ready for a shiny new edition. If 4E turns out not to be to my liking I may come back later and see how Pathfinder development is coming along. Or I may just take some of the ideas (that change to perception is cool) and use them in 4E.
At any rate, Pathfinder sounds like a really good salve for people who've already made up their minds to hate on 4E. I'm grateful to Paizo for that.
The art and layout are both FANTASTIC. Sarah Robinson did an excellent job in selecting existing pieces and commissioning new pieces from a bunch of skilled artists with different styles, yet consistent feel. Gorgeous product, especially given that it's an alpha doc.
And kudos to Paizo for the open playtest. I don't think an open playtest is a good idea for a brand new ruleset (you'd run into non-helpful feedback like "it's not like the old edition!"), but for improving a existing edition? Good choice.
It really is a cool-looking set of rules, and Paizo's enthusiasm and passion for the game is a treat. If I were at all interested in continuing with 3.5 I would totally playtest Pathfinder. I'm not; after nine years of the same game I'm ready for a shiny new edition. If 4E turns out not to be to my liking I may come back later and see how Pathfinder development is coming along. Or I may just take some of the ideas (that change to perception is cool) and use them in 4E.
At any rate, Pathfinder sounds like a really good salve for people who've already made up their minds to hate on 4E. I'm grateful to Paizo for that.
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