Pathfinder 1E Paizo Annoucement!

[Ingolf]

I haven't read it in depth yet, but my impression of the Pathfinder RPG from the reading I have done is not positive. While it does correct some of the problems of 3.5, it fails to even address the biggest ones, and even compounds a few others. A closer reading will tell me if my initial impression is correct or not, but right now I have to agree with those who think it feels like 3.5 with a band-aid applied to it.

 

[Ingolf]

I think Paizo just reduced 4E's initial sales by at least a quarter. Possibly as much as by half.

If you're right, they just killed D&D.

Luckily, you're wrong. By a couple orders of magnitude.

 

[el-remmen]

From my brief skim of the rules, the only thing I don't like is, once again, no skill points -- but I'm "Getting" that I'm the only person on the planet which DID like them.

There are at least two of us, Dr. Connors.

 

[GlassJaw]

This is definitely a bold move by Paizo, and overall I think it'll be good for the industry. I also think it's pretty disappointing how WotC has handled the 4E release, previews, getting the developers the rules, etc. Essentially, they allowed this to happen, and it doesn't make them look good.

That said, while I'm fully behind Paizo on this, I think their initial release - the Alpha rules - falls short. I believe they needed a much stronger "product" to coincide with this announcement. My first impression of the Alpha rules is kind of "meh". Yeah, there are some nice additions to the classes and cool ideas here and there but it doesn't really do anything to address some of the core problems of 3.5 gameplay - rest for 8 hours and spend all resources in one battle, save or die spells/effects, energy drain, attacks of opportunity, full attack/iterative attacks, etc.

I do think the open playtest is pretty cool, but it's a slippery slope. It's still early but I definitely can see the feedback forum on the Paizo site becoming a free-for-all. We are at the point in its life cycle where everyone has their own opinions of how to "fix" 3.5, and the feedback forum will reflect that.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Paizo is doing Pathfinder RPG because they can't do 4E.*

They can't do 4E because they never got the GSL.

The above we know. Now, time for a prediction:

In 1-2 years, Paizo *will* have the GSL and *will* move to 4E.

This current interregnum is an unfortunate side effect of WotC lawyers trying to get the OGL genie back into the bottle, and failing to figure out a way how to do so.

While a small but vocal group of individual customers are pleased with Paizo's decision, the hobby customer base as a whole suffers. Why?

Two reasons:

1) The willingness of WotC to release some form of an OGL in subsequent editions of D&D just went down the toilet.

2) The gaming base is further fractured, a result that - unless 4E brings in wholly new gamers - our hobby can little withstand.

Out.

W.P.




* Before someone yells at me for this statement, read Erik's blog. He tells you that's the most significant - albeit not sole - reason.

 

[Pinotage]

My take is 10%, maybe as much as 20%. Whoever at WoTC caused the GSL to not be ready at GenCon 2007 is really the main cause of this. The GSL and keeping Paizo in the D&D camp should have been one of their highest priorities.

I think it's more a case of proportion of sales between choices. What I mean by this, is this:

1) Paizo decides to stick with 4e. The GSL is late, so they get products out late. 4e releases, and Paizo gets a small section of the 4e pie. They've killed their 3.5e pie, shot it and buried it in concrete, so no sales there.

2) Paizo goes with 3.5e. I think in the short term they have a bigger chance of getting in more revenue by doing just this. Instead of opting for a small piece of the WotC pie, they're taking all the 3.5e leftovers. I think that percentage is going to be far higher than what they would've gained through the initial 4e releases.

For me, it makes sense for them to stick with 3.5e FOR NOW. They make more profit that way. Most polls around here have given a 25%/75% split between 3.5e and 4e. Instead to taking 10% of that 75%, they're opting for the whole 25%. Who wouldn't?

As clever as they are, I suspect they realise this, and they also realise that making this move doesn't stop them from supporting 4e. It gets them a little bit of the 4e pie (with Necromancer) and a taste test of it, and they keep the entire 3.5e leftovers. Great move, business-wise, as far as I'm concerned.

Pinotage

 

[catsclaw]

The "15 minute adventuring day" is a failure on the part of DMs, not the rules. The whole "blow all resources then camp to renew" style of play was solved years before 3e was published. If the adventurers stop to rest, roll dice and hit them with an encounter during the rest period. If they turn around from the dungeon to go home, roll dice and hit them with an encounter on the way home. Once the characters start living in a world where the unexpected can hurt them if they are spendthrift with their resources, the players will adjust their play style accordingly.

Absolutely. They'll "adjust their play style" by finding a different GM.

I mean, really? "Wow, that battle took a lot out of us. I'm out of spells, the cleric's only got Cure Lights left, and we already had the fighter and rogue go unconscious in the first fight. We've got to pull back and regroup. Another battle could take us all out."

GM begins preparing a random encounter, to force the party to keep going.

 

[zoroaster100]

I thought about it further and more carefully, and it became clear to me that the only thing that would get me to use the Pathfinder RPG rules to run an adventure path that runs to the mid- to high levels is if Pathfinder RPG fixes the one thing that I had grown to hate about 3.5 as a DM: buffs.

I need Pathfinder RPG to fix the fact that in 3.5 high level games, keeping track of buffs becomes an accounting chore, and that a buffed party is way more powerful than a non-buffed party.

Of course, fixing that then may require rebalancing the CR system to know what monsters and what NPCs truly are at the same level of power as the party.

If Pathfinder RPG can fix that fundamental problem I have with 3.5 Edition D&D, then I would consider running another adventure path with those rules. Otherwise I'm bailing and going to 4th Edition, and hoping that some day Paizo will join me over in 4th Edition so I can once again use their great adventures out of the box.

I think Paizo is a great collection of talent and passion for the game. So I wish them success. But nothing would please me more than having Paizo by 2009 start putting out Paizo 4th edition adventures and to have WOTC hand back Dragon and Dungeon to Paizo so Paizo can support 4th edition through the magazines in the same way they supported 3.0 and 3.5.

See, I was really hoping that WOTC's GSL would permit Paizo to give us back a Greyhawk-like world but using 4th edition adventures. I liked the old school D&D world, with demons and devils in their old roles. I liked old-style elemental planes. I liked gnomes. But I was tired of the 3.5 rules' complexity for DMing high level adventures. I would have trusted Paizo over any other company to do "4th edition rules, 3.5 edition feel". But I will certainly be looking to Necromancer Games with much hope in my heart, and I plan to support their efforts hoping they succeed in bringing this to pass after all.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

As clever as they are, I suspect they realise this, and they also realise that making this move doesn't stop them from supporting 4e. It gets them a little bit of the 4e pie (with Necromancer) and a taste test of it, and they keep the entire 3.5e leftovers. Great move, business-wise, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree - its a good move for Paizo (with a couple of caveats). It's a serious foulup by WoTC. WoTC caused this to happen; they could have avoided it. The danger for Paizo when/if they go 4E is that other companies may have snapped up the 4E niche that they could have filled, and by the time they make the switch (if they do) people may ask "Paizo who?"

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

I thought about it further and more carefully, and it became clear to me that the only thing that would get me to use the Pathfinder RPG rules to run an adventure path that runs to the mid- to high levels is if Pathfinder RPG fixes the one thing that I had grown to hate about 3.5 as a DM: buffs.

I need Pathfinder RPG to fix the fact that in 3.5 high level games, keeping track of buffs becomes an accounting chore, and that a buffed party is way more powerful than a non-buffed party.

Of course, fixing that then may require rebalancing the CR system to know what monsters and what NPCs truly are at the same level of power as the party.

If Pathfinder RPG can fix that fundamental problem I have with 3.5 Edition D&D, then I would consider running another adventure path with those rules. Otherwise I'm bailing and going to 4th Edition, and hoping that some day Paizo will join me over in 4th Edition so I can once again use their great adventures out of the box.

I think Paizo is a great collection of talent and passion for the game. So I wish them success. But nothing would please me more than having Paizo by 2009 start putting out Paizo 4th edition adventures and to have WOTC hand back Dragon and Dungeon to Paizo so Paizo can support 4th edition through the magazines in the same way they supported 3.0 and 3.5.

See, I was really hoping that WOTC's GSL would permit Paizo to give us back a Greyhawk-like world but using 4th edition adventures. I liked the old school D&D world, with demons and devils in their old roles. I liked old-style elemental planes. I liked gnomes. But I was tired of the 3.5 rules' complexity for DMing high level adventures. I would have trusted Paizo over any other company to do "4th edition rules, 3.5 edition feel". But I will certainly be looking to Necromancer Games with much hope in my heart, and I plan to support their efforts hoping they succeed in bringing this to pass after all.

That's a great post. And despite the fact I hate saying "QFT!", I'm going to do that here. I pretty much agree with you on every single aspect.

You should be afraid. Very afraid.

W.P.