Pathfinder 1E Paizo no longer publishing Dungeon and Dragon

[SHazle]

Another thing..

I (and i assume others) buy Dragon and Dungeon from my FLGS. This allows me to look through each and decide if the content is something I'd like to have. Sometimes this wasn't possible due to plastic covers to protect inserts, but for the most part it worked out great. I ended out buying every issue of Dragon since #274 (the first 3rd edition issue). Not so much with Dungeon, I only own about 2 out of every 3. The option to make this decision at the store makes the purchase more personal. What if WOTC started only putting out electronic publication? No hard cover books, just PDFs or some other format. Sales would surely drop.

Often these magazines were the sole reason for going to the store, and while browsing I would purchase other things. The limited quantities at my FLGS would induce me to get there the day of each release, not a factor with any other product. Without this, I will only go once a month, or less, and at my leisure, to sample the new releases to see if I need or what them. This is less time in the store with product in my face.

Online content is a great idea. What Wizards is trying to do (whatever it might become) is innovative and progressive. It might not work, but you won't know until they try. But Dragon and Dungeon magazine wouldn't have offered competition for customer base. People who what content, buy content wherever they can find it. Create quality content and the customers will come to you. Eliminate a good content provider to create a vacuum so the new one will have more room in the niche just says that you are not confidant of your product.

In my early gaming years, I would often borrow my friends' copies of Dragon to help enrich my worlds and characters. I just don't know how this will work with online or PDF content. I could make a copy (pirate) of what I have, but then my friend wouldn't have to purchase it if he liked it. If it is mostly online (like it is now), how will I access it in 5 years, I can still pull out Dragons from 5, 10, 20 years ago, not so much with online content.

Without more information on what Wizards has to offer I don't have any further insites, except that the content needs to be several times better than what goes on the D&D site now, to make me what to pay for it.

Thank you for your time.
-Scott Hazle

 

[jgbrowning]

Logic would dictate that the ONLY reason WotC cut the magazines out from under Paizo's (and our) feet, is to avoid competition. There is no other reasonable explanation.

Also don't forget that Dragon and Dungeon were also important advertising sources for other companies. Both of those magazines had effects in the market beyond their gaming content for customers.

joe b.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I think I missed something. Has anyone stated that Dungeon and Dragon were canceled because they were losing money?

Just the opposite. It's been specifically stated that they weren't losing money. Speculation has been made that they were costing WotC money.

 

[jgbrowning]

Just the opposite. It's been specifically stated that they weren't losing money. Speculation has been made that they were costing WotC money.

Or to be more precise, speculation has been made that WotC believes they will make more money without them than they will with them.

joe b.

 

[caudor]

Wow, I wake up to this bomb being dropped. I have no idea what to think of this as I didn't subscribe to either Dungeon or Dragon, but I do pick up a lot of Dungeon issues. I guess I'm of the mind of wait and see.

If they include a kick butt character generator, I'd be more prone to purchase this. If its just the same stuff I could have got in Dungeon and Dragon, not so much. I really hope they do a lot with this as I think it could be pretty cool.

I'm also willing to wait and see. If the online content includes a good character generator (with access to current and upcoming material to create my characters), then I'll be all over that. Using the power of the computer to easily access all those feats, spells, classes, options, etc....now that would be cool.

I'll transfer over to Pathfinder as well. The scary part about all of this is moving from known to unknown. I will miss Dragon and Dungeon.

 

[Vigilance]

Huh? Then I'm an awfully strange "young people" with my 19. In fact, many of my friends *like* books. And magazines often couple their magazines with a web-presence, most e-zines have died after some years... do you you know *any* successful webzine!?

Well I am a multi-year subscriber to Steve Jackson's Pyramid magazine, a gaming magazine that went from print to digital and still seems to be going strong.

Does that count?

 

[dougmander]

Doug,

Yeah well, apparently they believe in spiting the quarter to save the penny.

It's so puzzling to me. Dungeon and Dragon weren't just vehicles for WotC products, they were product catalogs/fanbooks for the faithful that people actually paid for -- a way to shore up brand loyalty. Most brand managers would kill to have that. Do you pay a subscription to receive Pottery Barn or Abercrombie & Fitch catalogs?

I'd love to know what the thinking was behind the decision -- it seems counterproductive, especially considering how many years went into building up the membership for these magazines and creating a culture around them.

 

[Ry]

I'm not surprised at how personally some others are taking this.

But I am pretty surprised at how personally I'm taking this. I feel like I've been punched in the gut.

 

[Jupp]

I never thought I would ever write a letter to a company about the cancellation of a product. You think it's only the "others" doing this kind of stuff. But this time I had to voice my opinion as well. It's truly sad that Dungeon and Dragon are being withdrawn.

Von: <xxxxxxxx@xxxx.ch>
Gesendet: Fre Apr 20 18:13
An: corporateinfo@wizards.com
Priorität: normale

Betreff: Withdrawal of Dragon and Dungeon

Typ: HTML Msg


To the management of Wizards of the Coast and the individuals that are responsible for the withdrawal of the licence of Dungeon Magazine and The Dragon from Paizo

I would like to hereby show my disapproval of the action WotC has taken in this matter.

I am disappointed, I am angry and I feel that two of the biggest flagships that made D&D what it is today will soon be gone for good. And the thing that hurts me most, personally, is that I do not feel that we, the gamers, will get any kind of sufficient replacement for Dungeon and Dragon.

I think you are going to hurt two variants of players the most here. The ones, and I am part of that group, that grew up with Dungeon or Dragon, that were introduced to D&D through those magazines so many years ago. And those that do not yet know about D&D (you know, I did belong to that group once as well) and perhaps never will do because of the fact that those two mags will not be around any more. Let me tell you my little story:

I live in Switzerland, a country that never was on the radar of TSR/WotC when it came to distributing Dungeon or Dragon to. But that didn’t hold some people here back from importing the mag from the UK or even directly from the States. It was one of those magazines lying around at a friend's house that caught my interest. At first it was just the ordinary questions like "What's that? D&D, is that a game? How do you play it?" Fast forward 15 years and I am still here playing D&D and reading Dungeon Magazine. After Paizo took over the mag some years ago they also started to improve the magazine to make it the flagship for D&D that it was so many years ago. It became so good that more than 3 years ago I even subscribed to Dungeon, disregarding the high costs to ship it to Switzerland. Because Dungeon is that good, those peeps over the pond deserve the money for it. Erik, James and the other people at Paizo brought Dungeon and Dragon back from a mediocre quality to a top quality product.

You see, Dungeon and Dragon brought me to D&D, they kept me playing D&D and Dungeon brought me to DMing my own group back then. And that brought another bunch of people to play D&D. And perhaps they will start DMing as well. And perhaps they will even be as crazy as me and subscribe to either Dungeon or Dragon. Who knows?

To me Dungeon and Dragon are two of the most important advertising tools to bring people to D&D, to make them stay with D&D and to promote the game to others. Dungeon makes the life of a DM so much easier. You need an adventure, you open the mag, go through it, choose an adventure and you can just start with it. And Dragon gives players all the stuff they would like to add to their characters. It's the perfect combination.

Now you want to start the digital age for D&D. That's ok, it's worth a shot. Though a lot of companies tried to go that route and failed miserably perhaps you will make the right decisions and make a good product.

But let me tell you that I will certainly not be part of the target audience.

I am not a grognard, I am not nearly old enough to be one anyway, I'm not one of those people that despise everything digital. Heck, I am an IT manager with a background in system engineering and programming. I am used to digital content and web based distribution of content. But I would never go for a digital "Dungeon" or a digital "Dragon". I do not want to use a web page to download an adventure from. I also do not want to use a computer to play or DM D&D. It just doesn't work well. And by god I tried all those tools and spiffy applications that promise you to solve all the problems when it comes to playing, DMing or organizing a game. It-does-not-work-well-enough. Period. I want to open a book or, in this case, a magazine and then go for it. There is nothing easier than that. No printing out, no dependence for a colour printer, no web browsing.

And another thing why I would not want a digital Dungeon/Dragon: Because it is digital. A magazine you can store for years and years until the paper starts to crumble to dust. You can move your house and just take them with you. A digital copy? Harddisk crash, gone. New computer, forgot to back up the harddisk, gone. WotC goes out of business, where do I re-download the content from now? Gone.

So here you have it. You brought a 33 year old person to write such a letter. A person that never wrote to a company before to complain about the cancellation of a product. Because I take it personal. Because I feel attached to those magazines. Because in my personal opinion they are part of what is D&D. You intend to remove something that has been part of this game from the very beginning on. 30 years for crying out loud. Once it was called Strategic Review, then there came The Dragon, then there was Dungeon. You are throwing away 30 years of history and quality.

So here I am to ask you, no, to beg and plea to you to rethink all this. Go and read all the message boards out there. Get a feeling of what the people think about your actions. Go to RPG.net, to ENWorld and all the others. And then come back and think about it again.


Sincerely


Thorsten Schneider

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I am just not sure if I should have any hope that WotC is going to reconsider their actions. But how do we say here? Hope always dies last :\

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well I am a multi-year subscriber to Steve Jackson's Pyramid magazine, a gaming magazine that went from print to digital and still seems to be going strong.

Does that count?

That would depend upon subscription rates & profitability before & after the transition. With the significantly lower costs of online publishing, its easier to keep a hobbled product on the market.

I know, however, that I haven't read an issue of Pyramid since it went electronic. Once the magazine died in print form, it was dead to me.