Pathfinder 2E Paizo Officially Supporting Foundry, Free Content Ending

payn

Legend
It was a nightmare on Roll20 (because it didn't have access to the NPC and monster stat blocks) - if you recall I put Abomination Vaults on there, and probably put in 80ish hours to get the first two books put in.
On Foundry, it wouldn't be as bad, because at least you have access to the monster stats from the compendia. I do think it's more time intensive to create tokens and maps on Foundry than Roll20, but at least you've got stat blocks.
But if it came down to that point, I would just write my own adventures.
Pathfinder is a different beast from Traveller. You have a lot more combat, with more detailed stat blocks, unique magic items that have to be entered, etc.
Gotcha, sounds about right.

How available and whats the timing like for the old free modules? I would guess folks might like this announcement because timing might be better even though it now has a cost.
 

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Retreater

Legend
Gotcha, sounds about right.

How available and whats the timing like for the old free modules? I would guess folks might like this announcement because timing might be better even though it now has a cost.
It seems like every standalone adventure, AP, PFS adventure was available, and seemed like a quick turnaround too. However, the guy who was producing the content is retiring.
So this will be the only game in town on Foundry, it would seem.
If anything, I would assume the timing will be worse going through Paizo. For one thing, we'll be starting over from scratch with no content. (It's not like they're starting with their back catalog. It's one current thing at a time.) I'm sure there will be stuff they don't even touch - standalones and PFS adventures that don't make bank, for example.
 


Staffan

Legend
Speaking of which, what sort of discount are we getting? I just bought Bestiary 2 , is it going to be $59.99 (discounted with the $15 I spent on the PDF)?
On Roll20, Paizo products (at least adventures and rulebooks) are usually sold for the same price as the physical product, and if you've bought the PDF you get a discount equal to the PDF's price. If you don't already have the PDF, you get a complementary one (so either way, you end up paying full MSRP for PDF + VTT implementation). It seems likely that the pricing will be similar on Foundry.

Some might think that paying $45 for having e.g. a Bestiary implemented on the VTT is a lot, when having an AP part costs $7. But that's because the rulebook PDFs are heavily discounted: $15 for a $60 book, while an AP part is $18 for a $25 book.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
As a side note, as somebody who has gotten a glimpse into the costs of producing VTT content, it's eye-wateringly expensive. Much more so than producing the original books in the first place. When you buy the VTT version of something, you're not buying the same product twice, you're paying for the incredible amount of hard work it takes to convert that.
 

Staffan

Legend
As a side note, as somebody who has gotten a glimpse into the costs of producing VTT content, it's eye-wateringly expensive. Much more so than producing the original books in the first place. When you buy the VTT version of something, you're not buying the same product twice, you're paying for the incredible amount of hard work it takes to convert that.
Yeah, I've expanded a bit on the Roll20 content in The Show Must Go On and Legacy of the Lost God – nothing fancy, just added an encounter map where one was missing, built some NPCs/monsters, and some side quest stuff, and it was a lot of work even when using prefab content. I can't imagine doing a whole module.

It would probably be more work in Foundry – I haven't dug too deep into it, but it seems to have a lot more functions than Roll20 (such as one-way walls, enabling you to have someone on a higher position see those in a lower without being seen back). That's cool, but probably also takes more work to set up.
 

Retreater

Legend
It would probably be more work in Foundry – I haven't dug too deep into it, but it seems to have a lot more functions than Roll20 (such as one-way walls, enabling you to have someone on a higher position see those in a lower without being seen back). That's cool, but probably also takes more work to set up.
Not dismissing the work it takes to set up modules on Foundry and Roll20 (because I've put in that work before), but these walls on Foundry are pretty easy. You just click on the wall tool, select that you want a one way wall, and draw it on the dynamic lighting layer. It's the same process to draw doors, windows, terrain walls (blocks movement and sight, but allows you to see what they are - like boulders/columns) or regular walls. Just click and drag where you want the wall.
I'm pretty proud of the stuff I put on VTTs. My players sometimes comment that the maps on purchased modules aren't as good as what I've done - Rime of the Frost Maiden on Roll20 had some glaring inaccuracies, for example (wrong map scale, unaligned grids).
 
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This is Fantasy Grounds, but click and add walls. And doors. And windows. Etc. Takes hours and hours for any decent sized adventure with a reasonable amount of maps. If a module with only one letter sized map then 30 minutes to an hour depending on all the features.

You also need player maps, so one with a DM key and one without.

it is not hard but it can be time consuming.

And that is just kind of sight. Lighting is another pass through the map.
 

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Wow, I step away for a few months and a bunch of things happen. :oops:

I get both sides, but I think it's positive for a number of reasons.

Obviously it sucks to lose a very nice, very useful piece of free software. Like, I don't use APs, but I would likely compare it to something like OggDude's FFG Star Wars character creator: given no other alternative, having that character generator was fantastic for simple organizational stuff in a game I love. So if that were to suddenly disappear from the web, it'd be frustrating as all hell, since I'd have to manually do all the work and organization on my own.

(Off-topic: God, I'd pay so much money for FFG SW software support. I hope Edge Studios manages to pull off the impossible and works something out with Disney/LucasFilm.)

On the other hand, I think there are a number of positives here. While it does cost money, I do remember one of your (@Retreater ) critiques of playing Foundry was relying on fans to keep up modules and the possibility of having something no longer updated. It's something I myself said was unlikely in the case of rules, but for smaller modules was more of a possibility, and here we were confronted with it. But Paizo taking up the content themselves means it's much more likely to keep support going than an unpaid fan developer.

Along with that, the official developer getting into the game arguably helps with regard to exclusive official content. PDF import can do a lot, but it won't put in sounds and music, which it looks like Paizo is going to do, which is cool since Foundry has a bunch of unique things it does for sounds. Similarly, I'm not sure how much the PDF transfer can get for lighting, particularly unique lighting effects to create ambience.

More than that, I really hope this means more official support. It would be nice to see them help out on the rules side, maybe helping out with adding effects and such to spells and other things. The PF2 rules are already among the best-implemented and supported out there, but it's nice to see the company going to where it's fans are and putting real support out there. And with Paizo doing this, hopefully it'll inspire more companies to move in? Foundry is getting bigger and bigger and I think this is just great news for the VTT space to have something that is a bit more complex for the hobbyist compared to Roll20 (as well as not needing a subscription).
 
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payn

Legend
With the prevalence of VTT now one positive of this is that its likely some combination of these products may be offered in the future at a reduced price for the combo. Kind of like the APs have with physical and PDF.
 

With the prevalence of VTT now one positive of this is that its likely some combination of these products may be offered in the future at a reduced price for the combo. Kind of like the APs have with physical and PDF.

Given that they are also teaming up with Nexus, it'd be nice to have full integration of that stuff as well. In fact, that'd be an awesome selling point for Nexus.
 

Retreater

Legend
Given that they are also teaming up with Nexus, it'd be nice to have full integration of that stuff as well. In fact, that'd be an awesome selling point for Nexus.
I don't want to be sold on Nexus (or DND Beyond). I don't want to buy a bunch of piecemeal options to build characters, which are kept only as long as they are supported and we pay subscription fees.
As VTTs are becoming more prevalent ways to play, I expect to see more gates coming up, more nickel and diming, less stuff you get to keep. Restrictions on how many characters you can make. Maybe restrictions on how often you can open the character sheet? Maybe restrictions of what level of character you can play (until you pay to unlock high level content)?
This is the stuff they have the technology to do.
I guess I'm nervous because a) gaming is my main hobby, and b) online play is the only way I will be able to continue playing. I don't like voluntarily giving up control of how I play.
 

payn

Legend
I don't want to be sold on Nexus (or DND Beyond). I don't want to buy a bunch of piecemeal options to build characters, which are kept only as long as they are supported and we pay subscription fees.
As VTTs are becoming more prevalent ways to play, I expect to see more gates coming up, more nickel and diming, less stuff you get to keep. Restrictions on how many characters you can make. Maybe restrictions on how often you can open the character sheet? Maybe restrictions of what level of character you can play (until you pay to unlock high level content)?
This is the stuff they have the technology to do.
I guess I'm nervous because a) gaming is my main hobby, and b) online play is the only way I will be able to continue playing. I don't like voluntarily giving up control of how I play.
I mean, you dont need these things to play. You just need to sink the time in doing them yourself. I am actually impressed with whats available for free at this point.
 

Retreater

Legend
The implementation of PF2 on Roll20 was terrible. It was barely functional, and a lot of content was never released. The stuff on Foundry was better because fans made it. I don't expect to see satisfactory paid content on Foundry, if it's being handled the same way Roll20 is.
 

JThursby

Adventurer
I don't expect to see satisfactory paid content on Foundry, if it's being handled the same way Roll20 is.
I complained about the Roll20 content with a Paizo staffer once, and I learned something interesting: the Roll20 implementation was made by Roll20 themselves, and they wholly own it. Paizo can't actually alter or update anything on there. The funny part is that the PF2e community is fairly passionate and if Roll20 would let them work on the character sheet and whatnot for free some guys would probably do it.
I don't want to be sold on Nexus (or DND Beyond).
I'm still skeptical about Nexus as well. It hasn't yet done anything for me that the book releases, PDFs or Nethys already accomplishes.
As VTTs are becoming more prevalent ways to play, I expect to see more gates coming up, more nickel and diming, less stuff you get to keep. Restrictions on how many characters you can make. Maybe restrictions on how often you can open the character sheet? Maybe restrictions of what level of character you can play (until you pay to unlock high level content)?
This is the stuff they have the technology to do.
This is classic slippery slope rhetoric. Yesterday there was no paid content on Foundry, today there is some, tomorrow they will take away the free stuff, etc. There's no precedent of this extreme behavior from Paizo, or even a company like Wizards of the Coast. The only tabletop companies I can think of being this nakedly and self destructively greedy today are Games Workshop, with Andrews McMeel as a distant second. There's a reason the PF2e community settled on Foundry rather than, say, Fantasy Grounds. The Paizo clientele have developed an expectation of a high value return and not having services stand in the way of their hobby. Do you really expect that a company that rose to prominence via the Open Game License and maintains relevance via a liberal community use policy would just undo all of that in pursuit of a walled garden market?
 

I don't want to be sold on Nexus (or DND Beyond). I don't want to buy a bunch of piecemeal options to build characters, which are kept only as long as they are supported and we pay subscription fees.
As VTTs are becoming more prevalent ways to play, I expect to see more gates coming up, more nickel and diming, less stuff you get to keep. Restrictions on how many characters you can make. Maybe restrictions on how often you can open the character sheet? Maybe restrictions of what level of character you can play (until you pay to unlock high level content)?
This is the stuff they have the technology to do.
I guess I'm nervous because a) gaming is my main hobby, and b) online play is the only way I will be able to continue playing. I don't like voluntarily giving up control of how I play.

There's really nothing that indicates that's going to happen, and I'm honestly not sure that it could happen with PF2 given OGL. But I do like having official support for things, and having it for more things is always good.

Like, you don't need DND Beyond, but what it's good at doing is making things intelligible for people who don't live and breath 5E. And it'd be great to have that sort of access to Foundry rather than relegating it to a module that is basically fighting against the system.

And while I get not liking a subscription service, I'm okay with one as long as it's useful to me. When I was running 5E, I liked having DNDBeyond because it was an easy way to have all my players have access to books and be able to look at all their characters online. While I am a huge fan of Pathbuilder, I don't think it'll ever quite have that sort of functionality.

I mean, you dont need these things to play. You just need to sink the time in doing them yourself. I am actually impressed with whats available for free at this point.

I mean, the benefits of OGL, right?

I complained about the Roll20 content with a Paizo staffer once, and I learned something interesting: the Roll20 implementation was made by Roll20 themselves, and they wholly own it. Paizo can't actually alter or update anything on there. The funny part is that the PF2e community is fairly passionate and if Roll20 would let them work on the character sheet and whatnot for free some guys would probably do it.

Honestly, Roll20 just seems to have problems. I dunno if they've improved any of their stuff recently, but last I checked (September 2020 I think?) it wasn't great in general.

I'm still skeptical about Nexus as well. It hasn't yet done anything for me that the book releases, PDFs or Nethys already accomplishes.

I'm interested in seeing what they do. I mean, if I can get a bunch of campaigns across multiple systems being managed there, it would probably be worth it for me for the organization. But when it comes to reading, I do prefer standard PDFs.

This is classic slippery slope rhetoric. Yesterday there was no paid content on Foundry, today there is some, tomorrow they will take away the free stuff, etc. There's no precedent of this extreme behavior from Paizo, or even a company like Wizards of the Coast. The only tabletop companies I can think of being this nakedly and self destructively greedy today are Games Workshop, with Andrews McMeel as a distant second. There's a reason the PF2e community settled on Foundry rather than, say, Fantasy Grounds. The Paizo clientele have developed an expectation of a high value return and not having services stand in the way of their hobby. Do you really expect that a company that rose to prominence via the Open Game License and maintains relevance via a liberal community use policy would just undo all of that in pursuit of a walled garden market?

Again, I'm not sure that they can do much restriction given what they make available with OGL. Like, it'd require a huge shift in policy compared to what they've done in the past.
 

willrali

Explorer
As a side note, as somebody who has gotten a glimpse into the costs of producing VTT content, it's eye-wateringly expensive. Much more so than producing the original books in the first place. When you buy the VTT version of something, you're not buying the same product twice, you're paying for the incredible amount of hard work it takes to convert that.
So much agreed. And I’ve always found it bemusing to see the behavior of a plurality of people in a bunch of sectors of the consumer economy. There’s this expectation that everything should come for free, or if not free then extremely cheap with unrealistic bang-for-buck. That if I’m paying you anything at all, then I’m doing you a favor and you’d better step up. It’s a bit aggravating.

With our rpgs, we’re getting amazing content for really low prices considering the overheads and volumes. I don’t buy the reasoning that since I’ve paid $20 for an AP already then I’m somehow entitled to a giant halo of labor for anything associated with that AP, at no extra charge.
 

Retreater

Legend
Just want to say that I'm not the cheapskate some of you are trying to portray me as being. I will gladly pay for content.
I just don't feel like dancing, making kissing videos, and being a complete corporate fanboy because Paizo has announced that they are going to start charging a premium for something we used to get for free. You know, I'm not going to celebrate just for the chance to give Paizo money. For something I was already getting.
It's like if your friends had a nice public access TV show they were filming in their basement and they decided to stop doing it (because it's honestly, a lot of work). And then Noah's Arcade comes in to buy it and sell you the episodes, more slickly produced by Rob Lowe. But then Rob Lowe steals your girlfriend, who is a totally rad rocker gal.
So I'm not going to cheer for Rob Lowe, you know what I mean?
 


I occasionally convert items for Fantasy Grounds and sell them on their store. Usually because I am going to use the material in my own game and a little extra effort is all it takes.

I did Tome of Horrors which is a large 5e monster book. The number of hours spent to the actual pay received is way out of proportion. I am fine as I am not trying to make a living from it, but every time I see people wanting something for free that takes actual effort …

Just wait until the foundry team decides that an official WoTC license and ability to actually sell WoTC material is the thing to do and all the “free” options are ended there as well.
 

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