Paizo To Make Kingmaker Bestiary... For D&D 5E!

Kingmaker's 10th anniversary is approaching. Paizo has announced on their blog that, along with a Pathfinder 2E hardcover Kingmaker compilation, they will be creating a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for D&D 5E.


20190502-Kingmaker_500.jpg


The blog announcement says "[FONT=&amp]Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade."[/FONT]

It is being produced "with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing" and refers to "add-ons and unlocks" which "will be revealed as the campaign progresses". They're partnering with crowdfunding site Game On Tabletop.

They'll be revealing the details on Tuesday May 7th at noon Pacific time over at KingmakerCampaign.com.

Also in line is a Companion Guide for the PF2 Kingmaker campaign.
 
Russ Morrissey

Comments

Parmandur

Legend
How are you judging that? Not saying it’s not, I just haven’t seen evidence of it?
People I know are playing it, which is merely anecdotal, for one thing.

Primarily, sales charts. It's one of the best selling RPGs out at the moment, and has been consistently placing in the top five selling per ICV2 charts since it came out. By industry standards, removing D&D and Star Wars as a handicap, it seems a financial success.
 
People I know are playing it, which is merely anecdotal, for one thing.

Primarily, sales charts. It's one of the best selling RPGs out at the moment, and has been consistently placing in the top five selling per ICV2 charts since it came out. By industry standards, removing D&D and Star Wars as a handicap, it seems a financial success.
The big problem I have with all these sales charts is that the book industry, and by extension the RPG industry, simply does not share actual numbers of units sold. So a chart showing the top 5, as a random example, could have the product in the #1 spot selling 1 million units, and then #2-5 selling 50k or less each, making their being top 5 actually meaningless.

Something like a Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds list of most played games tells me more, since they give percentages for each game played.

Plus, considering most everything other D&D 5E is available to buy in PDF, something like the Starfinder core book could have sold only in the thousands for print copies, but maybe the tens or hundreds of thousands in PDF, and I am pretty sure those ICV2 charts only account for sales of physical copies of books. So it could actually be a big seller when everything is factored in, or it could just be the third biggest flea on the elephant's back.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Gut feeling.
Personal anecdotal evidence.
I think people are reaching saturation. I need maybe one good monster book. I think one more subclass book is needed. Maybe the psion. And I have more adventures that I need. After that, there’s little they can publish to improvise my game.
Meanwhile, I think most of the people who would play and are interested and been exposed already. New player acquisition is going to slow down.

Plus, 2017 was a huge year and 2018 was even better. Can 2019 be even better? Or just the same as things plateau?

If 2018 was the peak, then 2019 will be close to what 2017 was. And 2017 was a huge year. And since 2014 was a string year too, 2022 will still be decent sales. And the game could go to 2024 before they really need to have a new edition.
And that’s assuming the decline is as sharp as the rise. It will likely be slower.
I think we have not yet hit the peak. D&D as a brand has barely been tapped in terms of a mainstream audience. If the Critical Role cartoon gets good reviews and picked up by Amazon or Netflix and really takes off, that could bring a lot more people to the game who become curious because of the cartoon. They like the cartoon, they learn about the web stream, and then D&D. If a D&D movie is made that is actually successful, that could bring many new players.

But even if you are correct, and we are close to the peak for new players, I don't think we are at the peak of profits. There is still a lot for WotC to make by licensing content to third-parties that a providing it in digital formats. I think they'll want to milk these revenue sources a few more years, along with making money from software and books, for a few years before they bring in a new edition. I'm not sure that edition churn is the way to make money going forward.
 

Parmandur

Legend
The big problem I have with all these sales charts is that the book industry, and by extension the RPG industry, simply does not share actual numbers of units sold. So a chart showing the top 5, as a random example, could have the product in the #1 spot selling 1 million units, and then #2-5 selling 50k or less each, making their being top 5 actually meaningless.

Something like a Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds list of most played games tells me more, since they give percentages for each game played.

Plus, considering most everything other D&D 5E is available to buy in PDF, something like the Starfinder core book could have sold only in the thousands for print copies, but maybe the tens or hundreds of thousands in PDF, and I am pretty sure those ICV2 charts only account for sales of physical copies of books. So it could actually be a big seller when everything is factored in, or it could just be the third biggest flea on the elephant's back.
True, we only have vague ideas of relative success: I dunno if Starfinder is hitting Paizo's internal metric goals or whatever, but it is, relatively speaking, one of the best selling games of the past few years. I see no reason to doubt it's being successful in TTRPG industry terms.
 

S'mon

Legend
True, we only have vague ideas of relative success: I dunno if Starfinder is hitting Paizo's internal metric goals or whatever, but it is, relatively speaking, one of the best selling games of the past few years. I see no reason to doubt it's being successful in TTRPG industry terms.
I get the impression it's successful in standard industry terms, but not in "Pathfinder 2010" terms and certainly not in "5e D&D 2018" terms.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Paizo To Make Kingmaker Bestiary... For D&D 5E!

Successful doesn’t mean “the single biggest” — there’s more than one successful company or person in the world. Successful means achieving the goals of the company.
 
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zztong

Explorer
If Paizo then turns around and starts supporting 5e, suddenly that whole brand identity gets called into question.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but on a personal level, the PF2 Playtest stripped away any brand loyalty I had for Pathfinder. It also got several of my friends to start looking at 5e. To one of them, an official and supported pairing of 5e and Golarion would be ideal. It will be interesting to see where all the chips land.
 
Successful doesn’t mean “the single biggest” — there’s more than one successful company or person in the world. Successful means achieving the goals of the company.
This is key. Americans in particular have the "king of the hill" mentality, as if the King Gorilla is the only successful gorilla. It is an incredibly myopic worldview. Not everyone has this view explicitly, but it is a subconscious influence that is particularly prevalent among Americans.
 

lyle.spade

Explorer
This is key. Americans in particular have the "king of the hill" mentality, as if the King Gorilla is the only successful gorilla. It is an incredibly myopic worldview. Not everyone has this view explicitly, but it is a subconscious influence that is particularly prevalent among Americans.
Interesting observation, or perceived observation. We can also tend to be a bit manic...everything is awesome and spotless, or all is lost.

That aside, there is plenty of room in the market for a few big players, but 5e has really pushed aside most all other systems, and it starting to spread in a manner somewhat like during the d20 era, although I think overall the quality of third party work is much higher than 15+ years ago.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Adventurer
Don't forget the non-English-speaker market of the RPGs. Lot of players are too young and they would rather to buy books in their own language.

The end of Paizo is still far. It can sell things aren't published by WotC; new classes and PCs races. And Starfinder is a franchise with a great future.
 

TheSword

Explorer
I played Pathfinder for 10 years, but ultimately 1st edition became too bloated. The system needed a reset to make it tight again. However the old guard liked the bloat (or for them the range options it represents). If you’re a master of a system you don’t mind that the system requires mastery to play. Paizo’s release schedule was punishing. I do believe there is an issue with too much choice.

That said I don’t think Paizo’s best IP not the game system or the world of Golarion (which is pretty bland). These are really just vehicles for what they do really well : great adventures! I don’t see any reason why these couldn’t run across multiple systems and increase their reach exponentially. It worked in the days of 3e. Why not now.

Kingmaker, Skull and Shackles, Curse of the Crimson throne, Carrion Crown, Serpants skull are amazing campaigns that are truly world class. They deserve official conversion to 5e.
 
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Mistwell

Hero
Isn’t it exactly as bloated as the number of books you choose to buy and use?
I've written about this concept a lot before, but the short answer is no.

The longer answer is that nobody is an island in a group game like this. Particularly if you are the DM, and you're playing with friends who buy stuff they like, it becomes increasingly difficult to say no to everything, to test everything and see how it works with everything else, to anticipate how things will be used, etc..

Bloat impacts most people, even if they don't buy the books with those books. It usually creates unpleasant peer pressure if you are not willing to look at new stuff - and if you are willing to look at new stuff, that is itself a burden on you. And then if you say no, that's an additional (often frequent) burden dealing with the friends who asked. There is also a culture surrounding a game, not the least of which is this very message board, and opting out of new stuff sometimes means opting out of that culture and conversation with your peers.

The more stuff out there for a game, the more it impacts you.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I've written about this concept a lot before, but the short answer is no.

The longer answer is that nobody is an island in a group game like this. Particularly if you are the DM, and you're playing with friends who buy stuff they like, it becomes increasingly difficult to say no to everything, to test everything and see how it works with everything else, to anticipate how things will be used, etc..
I can’t get my friends to buy my own supplements let alone anybody else’s. Maybe I’m unusual, but this problem doesn’t exist for me — we simply use whatever books the GM (me) provides.
 

TheSword

Explorer
Isn’t it exactly as bloated as the number of books you choose to buy and use?
I think that is true to some extent. Though with all of Pathfinder content in the Pfsrd, there were about 1500 feats if memory serves about 200 subclasses, 30 classes all available at player’s fingertips. I think in the end the designers become as paralysed by this as new players and DM do. It also become almost impossible to balance power when these things can be combined in so many things ways.

I remember starting a new group I’d collected and two experienced players trying to coach three new players through character gen. It was so time consuming - even with the 50 or so feats in the core books. The whole process took the entire five hour session.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I think that is true to some extent. Though with all of Pathfinder content in the Pfsrd, there were about 1500 feats if memory serves about 200 subclasses, 30 classes all available at player’s fingertips. I think in the end the designers become as paralysed by this as new players and DM do. It also become almost impossible to balance power when these things can be combined in so many things ways.

I remember starting a new group I’d collected and two experienced players trying to coach three new players through character gen. It was so time consuming - even with the 50 or so feats in the core books. The whole process took the entire five hour session.
Just take the core rulebook along and say that’s what you’re using.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
Isn’t it exactly as bloated as the number of books you choose to buy and use?
Maybe, as long as you don't use official adventures/APs. The last many of them are bloated with monsters from late bestiaries, not to speak of the npcs who have classes, abilities and feats many people haven't even heard about. Sure, it's online for free, but a real pain to use.
 

TheSword

Explorer
Just take the core rulebook along and say that’s what you’re using.
That is an option. However as Matrix says the APs are using stuff beyond the core rulebook. Well beyond it.

It also begs the question what’s the point of playing in a system that doesn’t grow. Pathfinder grew too fast in a glut of trying to release two products a month at least.

5e grows, but at a manageable pace. With the option for conversions if you want to try things not released yet.
 

zztong

Explorer
This is key. Americans in particular have the "king of the hill" mentality, as if the King Gorilla is the only successful gorilla. It is an incredibly myopic worldview. Not everyone has this view explicitly, but it is a subconscious influence that is particularly prevalent among Americans.
Perhaps. But I think it is more the notion that "business is war" and this is the discussion of the spectators and fans. That isn't unique to the USA. I want to say it is probably shared with parts of Asia, but that's not my field of study and I could be... well am... usually full of it.
 

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