Salukiknight
First Post
I'll be sure to pour over those tonight. maybe in place of the Versatile Channeler?
Paladin/Battlemind Help
- Thread starter Salukiknight
- Start date
I'd suggest that you drop a few points out of con into Wisdom or Cha. You really don't need Constitution much over 15.
Paladins are already the single toughest defender in the heroic tier. While they lack the HP of Wardens, they get +1 to all NADs, and Plate armor standard (which almost no other class gets).
Throw in Dwarves, who naturally second wind, and I think there's no way you need to push your toughness that high. You're optimized to be nearly unkillable, but nearly unkillable isn't fun, and eventually your DM will figure out that he can just ignore you, and go bug the other party members, at which point you have a nearly unkillable useless person.
I strongly, strongly STRONGLY suggest you consider Devout Protector Expertise. It's a new feat for pallies, and also the new hotness. +1 Shield bonus to AC for your party. Expertise feat is obv strong, but +1 AC to all allies anywhere is ridiculously strong, and will make you a LOT of friends. It's also a shield bonus, not a feat or power bonus, so it will work as long as your party isn't big on shields (that's highly likely).
It also may be worth considering for your next feat to get the Bitter Challenge/World Serpent's Grasp package. Slowing on mark punishment then proning adds a nice package of control.
Salukiknight
First Post
Sadly, character was designed on dice rolls. So I had a 16, and "Dwarf" made it a 18.
I HAD saw the World Serpent's Grasp, that sounded neat. And I'll definately take DPE, that's very awesome.
Also, let me sound like a fool. what is NADS?
Salukiknight
First Post
Rebuilt feats, now looks at:
Dwarven Weapon Prof
Bitter Challenge
Battlewise
Devout Protector Expertise
As for Multiclass feats, I've come to like the "Oath of Enmity" available via Avenger. Thoughts?
Dwarven Weapon Prof
Bitter Challenge
Battlewise
Devout Protector Expertise
As for Multiclass feats, I've come to like the "Oath of Enmity" available via Avenger. Thoughts?
Salukiknight
First Post
Actually, I think I can arrange that, I don't know why I didn't before.
If you're willing to accept being a little gamey, then I'd suggest dropping Bitter Challenge for virtually anything, and then the next time you get a feat retrain into the Bitter Challenge/WSG package.
The reason is Bitter Challenge is the ultimate in 'locking the barn door after the horses have fled' in terms of feats. Slowing AFTER the monster attacks one of your allies is hugely useless - how often does the monster do the attack-THEN move sequence? And because it lasts until the end of your next turn (not the monster's next turn) chances are most monsters won't ever take a slowed move action thanks to bitter challenge.
It's the WSG addition that makes the power anything other than bright red. Walking over and sending the misbehaving monster prone guarantees its next move action is spent standing up, and that it then gets to decide what to do while standing next to a defender and missing a move action to shift with.
Chances are he attacks you, which is exactly what you want. In my opinion it's very, very nice for the Chaladin, who lacks the mark punishment of Mighty Challenge.
Plus proning, if you get the timing right, can let quite a few of your allies attack with combat advantage, which can make it a lot easier to send that pesky elite to his grave.
If you don't want to be gamey, accept having a mostly dead feat until you pick up WSG
Anyway, it all in all looks like a solid pally build, and people will like you.
The reason is Bitter Challenge is the ultimate in 'locking the barn door after the horses have fled' in terms of feats. Slowing AFTER the monster attacks one of your allies is hugely useless - how often does the monster do the attack-THEN move sequence? And because it lasts until the end of your next turn (not the monster's next turn) chances are most monsters won't ever take a slowed move action thanks to bitter challenge.
It's the WSG addition that makes the power anything other than bright red. Walking over and sending the misbehaving monster prone guarantees its next move action is spent standing up, and that it then gets to decide what to do while standing next to a defender and missing a move action to shift with.
Chances are he attacks you, which is exactly what you want. In my opinion it's very, very nice for the Chaladin, who lacks the mark punishment of Mighty Challenge.
Plus proning, if you get the timing right, can let quite a few of your allies attack with combat advantage, which can make it a lot easier to send that pesky elite to his grave.
If you don't want to be gamey, accept having a mostly dead feat until you pick up WSG
Anyway, it all in all looks like a solid pally build, and people will like you.
Salukiknight
First Post
If you don't want to be gamey, accept having a mostly dead feat until you pick up WSG
Actually, I'm imagining with Battlewise getting my initiative roll to a +7 (without stat changes) and Call of Challenge (minor action), I can roll into a group, close burst 3 them with divine sanction, and now with Bitter Challenge, they're slowed. So I see some use in it NOW actually. I had considered that feat before, nice to see it stacks well with another one though.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
Now, I don't see it in your latest build, but I wanted to comment on Virtuous Recovery.
The chaladin in my campaign has Virtuous Recovery and has found it disappointing. In fact, he was talking about trading it out when we hit next level.
His 3 problems with it are that:
1. Its fiddly and he often forgets about it (to be fair, he doesn't like fiddly conditions and often forgets about interupt powers, etc.).
2. Its very situational. He often finds that he's healed right before his turn, which means that it doesn't get a chance to work as it goes away at the end of his next turn.
3. It really doesn't do very much (he has a very good wisdom, but at 15th level the amount of damage it prevents isn't very significant).
The first is a player issue, and may not be a problem with you.
The second is a group issue - in our group, everyone has a low initiative (pretty much everyone used dex as their dump stat), so its rare that monsters act between the players, making the power less useful. However, the better you make your iniative versus that of your healer, the more benefit you'll get from that feat - so it and the "wisdom for initiative" are a good combo. Additionally, having second wind as a minor (my chaladin is a tiefling, not a dwarf) also makes it more useful, as you can trigger it when you want in an encounter without giving up an attack.
The third issue is a level issue - it may well be one of those feats that's great at lower levels but eventually gets traded out.
Oh, and I saw someone asking what NADs were and I didn't see a response - they are Non Ac Defences.
Oh, and Battlewise stacks with Improved Iniative... which may be useful to know in the future. Or other iniative boosting feats like Awareness and Quickdraw.
Last edited:
Salukiknight
First Post
Yeah, I phased it out for Devout Protector Expertise, but it's one I still had in the back of my mind, thanks for the comment and the NADS definition though!
Dwarves are uber tough
Here's a fun build for a dwarf paladin. It involves hybriding, but with ranger for extra damage. I found a number of nifty ways to get around the minor action economy issues and a little synergy with basic attacks and marking (via Ardent Strike and using a lot of melee basic attacks, many of which work on a charge), while still being very tough, and very capable in combat.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Golden Axe, level 6
Dwarf, Paladin|Ranger
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Will
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Dwarf Subrace: Standard Dwarf Racial Traits
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.
AC: 26 Fort: 18 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 59 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 14
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Dungeoneering +12, Intimidate +8, Perception +10, Heal +10
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Endurance +3, History +2, Insight +5, Nature +5, Religion +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +3, Thievery -1
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 4: Master at Arms
Level 6: Battle Awareness
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Hurling Charge
Hybrid daily 1: Driving Blades
Hybrid utility 2: Bless Weapon
Hybrid encounter 3: Hold Fast
Hybrid daily 5: Snarling Wolf Stance
Hybrid utility 6: Healing Lore
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Dwarven Thrower Waraxe +2, Bloodiron Plate Armor +2
Just my take
btw, for level 6 death threat is good too, and later on I would grab Impending Doom style.
Round 1 : Hurling Charge -> charge -> replace with Ardent Strike, bam, you've hit the enemy with quarrying him and marking him the first turn.
If he tried to get away, whoops, -> Battle Awareness' MBA -> Hold Fast. stop right there, mister. Very cop/paladin like.
Round 2: Twin Strike until he's dead. Then Death Threat, charge the next guy, etc.
Maybe a Vanguard double axe would be good. But with Master at Arms, you gain decent possibility of being able to swap between Dwarven thrower Waraxe or Craghammer + Heavy fighting shield, and disappearing the fighting shield as a free action into your gloves of storing (once you can afford them). I didn't have enough cash for a neck slot item for now, but since you're so tough, I figured you can survive. Maybe level 8 take Superior Will after you bump Wisdom one more time, then at level 10 Impending Doom.
Level 11, for PP I'd grab Son of Mercy. For level 7 encounter I'd grab the very defendery flavored ranger power, Disruptive Strike.
So much goodness in this combo. But remember, bless weapon is mostly really good on a double axe, so I'd keep one as backup for when you're attacking tons of undead. Twin Strike + Bless Weapon + Double Axe = uber.
EDIT : I'd also like to note that marking is free with every purchase! of the MBAs granted by Snarling Wolf Stance. And once you're in Paragon, it makes sense to upgrade to a Sun Shield, which is an Axe type, then retrain Master at Arms into Axe Expertise. Or just ask your DM if there's such a thing as a +1/+2/+3/etc Sun Shield(s). That would rock you all the way up the levels, kind of your signature Dwarf Shield. wicked.
Edit : As much as I am loath to admit this, what would work even better as a defender, is Throw + Stab + Ardent Strike combo. That way, with Divine Challenge + Divine Sanction + Quarry, you can hurt + Mark two enemies each round, and be the most sprightly Dwarf on the battle field. Hold Fast for sticking one enemy where he is, while you shift + T&S the next two. , one of which at range. ahhh, so much good possibilities. Once you get into Paragon, by alternating targets back and forth, you can probably maintain two marks, one of which will probably always trigger, the other of which will be slowed enough so it can't even hit you or anyone else (terrain notwithstanding). The mind boggles at the prospect of such an insane vortex / maelstrom of marking + slowing doom. Some combos with hindering shield and craghammer + hammer feats would probably make it even more sticky + deadly by then. You just need to play test different things and retrain if you get bored with one tactic
Here's a fun build for a dwarf paladin. It involves hybriding, but with ranger for extra damage. I found a number of nifty ways to get around the minor action economy issues and a little synergy with basic attacks and marking (via Ardent Strike and using a lot of melee basic attacks, many of which work on a charge), while still being very tough, and very capable in combat.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Golden Axe, level 6
Dwarf, Paladin|Ranger
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Will
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Dwarf Subrace: Standard Dwarf Racial Traits
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.
AC: 26 Fort: 18 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 59 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 14
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Dungeoneering +12, Intimidate +8, Perception +10, Heal +10
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Endurance +3, History +2, Insight +5, Nature +5, Religion +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +3, Thievery -1
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 4: Master at Arms
Level 6: Battle Awareness
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Hurling Charge
Hybrid daily 1: Driving Blades
Hybrid utility 2: Bless Weapon
Hybrid encounter 3: Hold Fast
Hybrid daily 5: Snarling Wolf Stance
Hybrid utility 6: Healing Lore
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Dwarven Thrower Waraxe +2, Bloodiron Plate Armor +2
Just my take
btw, for level 6 death threat is good too, and later on I would grab Impending Doom style. Round 1 : Hurling Charge -> charge -> replace with Ardent Strike, bam, you've hit the enemy with quarrying him and marking him the first turn.
If he tried to get away, whoops, -> Battle Awareness' MBA -> Hold Fast. stop right there, mister. Very cop/paladin like.
Round 2: Twin Strike until he's dead. Then Death Threat, charge the next guy, etc.
Maybe a Vanguard double axe would be good. But with Master at Arms, you gain decent possibility of being able to swap between Dwarven thrower Waraxe or Craghammer + Heavy fighting shield, and disappearing the fighting shield as a free action into your gloves of storing (once you can afford them). I didn't have enough cash for a neck slot item for now, but since you're so tough, I figured you can survive. Maybe level 8 take Superior Will after you bump Wisdom one more time, then at level 10 Impending Doom.
Level 11, for PP I'd grab Son of Mercy. For level 7 encounter I'd grab the very defendery flavored ranger power, Disruptive Strike.
So much goodness in this combo. But remember, bless weapon is mostly really good on a double axe, so I'd keep one as backup for when you're attacking tons of undead. Twin Strike + Bless Weapon + Double Axe = uber.
EDIT : I'd also like to note that marking is free with every purchase! of the MBAs granted by Snarling Wolf Stance. And once you're in Paragon, it makes sense to upgrade to a Sun Shield, which is an Axe type, then retrain Master at Arms into Axe Expertise. Or just ask your DM if there's such a thing as a +1/+2/+3/etc Sun Shield(s). That would rock you all the way up the levels, kind of your signature Dwarf Shield. wicked.
Edit : As much as I am loath to admit this, what would work even better as a defender, is Throw + Stab + Ardent Strike combo. That way, with Divine Challenge + Divine Sanction + Quarry, you can hurt + Mark two enemies each round, and be the most sprightly Dwarf on the battle field. Hold Fast for sticking one enemy where he is, while you shift + T&S the next two. , one of which at range. ahhh, so much good possibilities. Once you get into Paragon, by alternating targets back and forth, you can probably maintain two marks, one of which will probably always trigger, the other of which will be slowed enough so it can't even hit you or anyone else (terrain notwithstanding). The mind boggles at the prospect of such an insane vortex / maelstrom of marking + slowing doom. Some combos with hindering shield and craghammer + hammer feats would probably make it even more sticky + deadly by then. You just need to play test different things and retrain if you get bored with one tactic
Last edited:
Similar Threads
