Paladin Divine Challenge Fixed

[small pumpkin man]

I don't quite get this, doesn't the Fighter "mark" his opponents every time he hits them? (which removes the Paladin's mark). I realize this isn't much better, and it just means the Paladin has to stand within five squares constantly marking the monsters fighting the Fighter, I'm just a bit confused.

 

[hong]

I don't quite get this, doesn't the Fighter "mark" his opponents every time he hits them? (which removes the Paladin's mark). I realize this isn't much better, and it just means the Paladin has to stand within five squares constantly marking the monsters fighting the Fighter, I'm just a bit confused.

No, the fighter uses one of his special abilities to mark. It isn't automatic on every hit.

 

[KarinsDad]

As has been pointed out already, marks have a defense. Attack the guy that marked you. Bada-bing, no penalties, and in the case of the Paladin, no getting zapped.

That does not take away the mark unless the markee kills the marker.

It's a lot tougher to kill an opponent to remove a condition than it is to move to remove a condition (or even to save to avoid a condition).

 

[Incenjucar]

That does not take away the mark unless the markee kills the marker.

It's a lot tougher to kill an opponent to remove a condition than it is to move to remove a condition (or even to save to avoid a condition).

That works fine.

This is basically a FEAR mechanic.

Which is pretty awesome.

 

[Mort]

Even difficult terrain has ways around it. Fly, tumble, teleport (with the many ways 1st level PCs can teleport in 4E).

This is not necessarily a good thing. There's little point to a hinderance that has too easy a way around it.

Marks don't. If one is Marked (to our knowledge), there is no way to get rid of it shy of killing the marker (or putting a different mark on the target). This is not like flank. This is not like difficult terrain.

The fire aura of a creature still has a defense. It just is, but the proper spell avoids it.


Powers in the game should not adversely affect opponents without a defense.

As stated you have a defense - attack the person who marked you and there are zero consequences from the mark. The Paladin's mark, btw, has apparently been fixed so the mark and run combo is no longer an option.

We are not talking about things that just are. We are talking about attacks. A mark is an attack. That's the bottom line. It is one opponent hindering the target in some way without a defense or opposed roll. Sorry, but attacks should have defenses. They should not be unavoidable.

This doesn't really fly because the mark is easily avoidable. There is a huge difference between "you must do this" and "if you don't do this there's a consequence."

Quite frankly, I consider this a flaw in the game system.

I consider it good game design to allow a choice but make sure the choice has consequences.

My current group has a crusader with these kinds of maneuvers and stances(for example a stance where if he threatens monster and the monster attacks anyone but him the monster has a -4 to hit) it's been working out well.

 

[Plane Sailing]

As has been pointed out already, marks have a defense. Attack the guy that marked you. Bada-bing, no penalties, and in the case of the Paladin, no getting zapped.

You've missed the point.

Here's the problem.

Enemy is standing adjacent to the fighter. The paladin is 3 squares away (just out of reach). The paladin issues his divine challenge Mark.

If the enemy ignores the paladin and attacks the fighter, he gets -2 to hit and takes 8(!) damage.

If the enemy attempts to attack the paladin he tries to move to the paladin, the fighter gets an immediate opportunity attack (class feature) and if he hits does damage and stops the enemy moving away from him.

So the enemy either attacks the fighter and the paladins challenge blasts him to bits, or he attempts to reach the paladin and keeps getting hacked by the fighter whom he can't attack without taking damage.

Cheers

 

[Incenjucar]

That would be a Rock and a Hard Place.

Isn't the POINT of this to make life hell for your opponent?

 

[small pumpkin man]

No, the fighter uses one of his special abilities to mark. It isn't automatic on every hit.

Ah, yep, the "may", didn't see that, carry on.

 

[Darth Cyric]

You've missed the point.

Here's the problem.

Enemy is standing adjacent to the fighter. The paladin is 3 squares away (just out of reach). The paladin issues his divine challenge Mark.

If the enemy ignores the paladin and attacks the fighter, he gets -2 to hit and takes 8(!) damage.

If the enemy attempts to attack the paladin he tries to move to the paladin, the fighter gets an immediate opportunity attack (class feature) and if he hits does damage and stops the enemy moving away from him.

So the enemy either attacks the fighter and the paladins challenge blasts him to bits, or he attempts to reach the paladin and keeps getting hacked by the fighter whom he can't attack without taking damage.

Cheers

Which is kinda why they fixed Divine Challenge. It's probably going to involve the Paladin not being able to just stand there.

 

[Darth Cyric]

It's a lot tougher to kill an opponent to remove a condition than it is to move to remove a condition.

Not necessarily.

Plus the markee doesn't have to kill the marker. One of the markee's allies could.