D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

Hussar

Legend
Heh, it's AMAZING what happens when you ACTUALLY read the rules instead of pontificating out of your vas deferens.

5e PHB page 86 said:
... they love the beautiful and life giving things of the world, not necessarily because they believe in the principles of honor, courage and justice. ... their commitment to preserving life and light in the world.

Tenets of the Ancients.
...This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos...

So, in other words, all this talk about cowardice or honor has no place in this paladin's discussion. An Oath of Ancients paladin is not a noble night, Lancelot type at all. This paladin is far closer to NG and, as such, preserving life is more important than being seen as being honorable. He preserved a life (his own) at the expense of another. He's probably going to be pretty guilt tripping for a long while, but, lose his status as a paladin? Sorry, you got the wrong kind of paladin here.
 

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Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Temporarily taking away some of his abilities, for only a day isn't really comparable with forcing a complete change of attitude and behaviour for the character. An Oathbreaker isn't likely to contribute to the party much.

I think you are conflating a mechanical change with how the player plays their character. Mechanically changing to an Oathbreaker doesn't require or even suggest that the player suddenly play their character's personality as drastically different.

Additionally, I disagree with taking away their abilities as a punishment, especially just for a day. If it is only a day, is that really even meaningful? Especially if the players happen to have some downtime following the encounter? On the other hand if the player has to go an entire adventuring day without their abilities during a time when the party is facing a number of obstacles, you are essentially asking that player to not participate in combat, at least not in any meaningful or impactful way. That seems too punitive. How is that going to impact the player's fun, and how is that going to impact the fun of the other players if they have to use more resources to carry the weight of one of their own while they are handicapped? There are any number of ways to create meaningful and fun consequences that further the story without requiring any kind of drastic change. And yes, I'm including changing to an Oathbreaker as well as removing their access to their abilities.

And yes, I would say that an Oathbreaker paladin is much more able to contribute to a party than a character without any access to their abilities. I think you are assuming that a player mechanically becoming an Oathbreaker suddenly becomes an entirely different person, one that is only working towards self-interest and personal power. But an Oathbreaker paladin can be a paladin that struggles wondering why their powers have changed and how this might be a reflection of the darkening of their soul. It doesn't have to require a drastic personality change, but instead can be more subtle or nuanced depending on how the player would interpret such a change, were they to agree to such a change in the first place.

Additionally, this seems pretty relevant because I am currently playing an Aasimar Paladin in a game. He has been the epitome of a paladin. He gives away all his treasure to the poor and donates to the church he is a part of, he is always using his healing on any NPC he comes across who is injured, keeps his opponents alive rather than slaughtering them in combat, and works tirelessly to do the right thing even when it is difficult. In fact, it's become kind of a running joke in the group that my character gives away all the good stuff and uses all his powers on the NPCs to the point that there's nothing left when the group needs it (don't worry, they are ok with it and have just as much fun in the challenge this creates). But my character also faced a super difficult choice. Free a bound devil and give up his soul, for knowledge of the dungeon they are trapped in that can help him and my character's companions survive. At first he scoffed at it. The only reason he didn't kill the demon was because he was bound, and killing it would lead to its freedom (even if it meant returning to the 9 Hells as a lemure. But after the party encountered the deadly creatures and traps deeper in the dungeon, and knowing they were also working against the clock, the paladin made a tough choice. He sacrificed his own soul, reasoning that he was a soldier and thus expendable. If him sacrificing his soul lead to a greater good through the ability of his companions to survive, he reasoned it was worth it. There is some other context, with him encountering other paladins of his order that had fallen (thus believing it was inevitable) and having experienced a crushing failure in which he lost a super powerful holy relic to a cambion that absolutely played him (as well as a critical failure against a sleep effect, but still a cool surprise by the DM), so the choice is not totally out of the blue. Still, after all this, my character is still trying to do good works and bring the light of his god to others, even if he may never again walk within that light. And now, he is an Oathbreaker, but he is still struggling with how he can do good and make the world better in spite of his fall.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
If nothing else, it might serve to expose some cases of kobayashi maruing of players who made the mistake of playing a character with ties to the world under the wrong GM.

Unlike the Kobayashi Maru this scenario had a correct answer. It wasn't a no win-scenario. The OP tells us as much.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Heh, it's AMAZING what happens when you ACTUALLY read the rules instead of pontificating out of your vas deferens.



So, in other words, all this talk about cowardice or honor has no place in this paladin's discussion. An Oath of Ancients paladin is not a noble night, Lancelot type at all. This paladin is far closer to NG and, as such, preserving life is more important than being seen as being honorable. He preserved a life (his own) at the expense of another. He's probably going to be pretty guilt tripping for a long while, but, lose his status as a paladin? Sorry, you got the wrong kind of paladin here.

"The oath emphasizes the tenets of good above law and chaos." But we already established that the Paladin did not do good. He might not have done evil, but it certainly wasn't good.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
And yet we know for certain there was at least one course of action that would have been good and saved the NPC. So the player obviously misjudged the situation. The player didn't take the time to even try to validate his assumptions in the situation. He simply gave the dragon the NPC.

An insight check could have possibly given some information. Asking the dragon a probing question and then judging it's reactions could have also worked.

If I was a player my take is that the dragon took the time to talk to me instead of just snathching the NPC. The Dragon's desires aren't solely for food. Play from there.


Isn't there a whole thread right now about how players don't ask for Insight checks because reasons of goals and approaches?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Isn't there a whole thread right now about how players don't ask for Insight checks because reasons of goals and approaches?

Didn't Iran bomb Saudia Arabia's oil refinery? I'm not exactly what either of these things have to do with THIS thread?
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Unlike the Kobayashi Maru this scenario had a correct answer. It wasn't a no win-scenario. The OP tells us as much.

As Kirk showed, K-M had a hidden optimal solution too: in that case cheat.

The problem with hidden optimal solutions is they appear obvious to the person who thinks of them and unrealistic/impossible/stupid/insane to everyone else who isn't privy to the secret details.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Didn't Iran bomb Saudia Arabia's oil refinery? I'm not exactly what either of these things have to do with THIS thread?
Because it shows a philosophical difference in the player community right now that may or may not have prevented the paladin player from pursuing that as an option at all.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Heh, it's AMAZING what happens when you ACTUALLY read the rules instead of pontificating out of your vas deferens.



So, in other words, all this talk about cowardice or honor has no place in this paladin's discussion. An Oath of Ancients paladin is not a noble night, Lancelot type at all. This paladin is far closer to NG and, as such, preserving life is more important than being seen as being honorable. He preserved a life (his own) at the expense of another. He's probably going to be pretty guilt tripping for a long while, but, lose his status as a paladin? Sorry, you got the wrong kind of paladin here.

You quoted the general part (good over any concern with law and chaos) without actually going on to the tenants. The tenants, particularly the last one, very much do emphasize courage as part of the oath.

Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.

That says, very clearly, cowards need not apply.
 

Hussar

Legend
"The oath emphasizes the tenets of good above law and chaos." But we already established that the Paladin did not do good. He might not have done evil, but it certainly wasn't good.

But, not doing good isn't enough to cost you Paladin status. You have to do something actually EVIL. Or directly violate the oath. Since the Oath of an Ancients paladin expressly does not include Chivalric concepts of duty or honor (my typo almost made that horror :D ) , then nothing he did actually violated his oath.

We agree that what he did wasn't evil. Cowardly? Maybe. Dishonorable? Quite possibly. But evil? Nope, sorry. And, since my Oath isn't the Chivalric Knight Code a la Lancelot or Captain America, comparisons to either fall flat. Oath of Devotion paladin? Oh, absolutely would be in need of a good shriving. Oath of Ancients? Not so much.

But, seeing @Celebrim trot out Captain America and Lancelot as examples of Paladins shows just how out of touch some DM's are with how 5e presents its paladins. Those are examples of ONE kind of paladin in 5e - Oath of Devotion. Fortunately, we've moved past that kind of restricted view of what a paladin is.

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Now, I mentioned this pages ago, but, I think it got lost in the scrum. My solution is to throw it back on the player. Does the player think he screwed up? If yes, then discuss with the player what would be an interesting way to atone. Maybe hunting down the dragon. Maybe paying a tithe to the widow. Maybe taking on the man's son as a ward or squire. Whatever. OTOH, if the player doesn't feel like he has done anything that needs atoning for, well, suck it up and move on. Making this an issue is not going to be fun for anyone. Punishing the player for making a bad decision in the heat of the moment is only going to lead to bad feelings at the table. It is not going to help anything.
 

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