D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[Fanaelialae]

What is the point of the paladin class?

Is it to evoke an archetype that has a history and a significance that extends back before PHB 1978, which Gygax et al drew upon?

Or is it to play a character within some technical boundaries which have no meaning beyond game rules to be complied with?

If the latter, then why is anyone in this thread talking about characters that were not constructed as game pieces to be played by those rules - such as Steve Rogers/Captain America?

If the former, then my comments about the importance of hope, and the avoidance of hubris, stand.

I think that you can absolutely have a pargon of virtue and justice who isn't required to be suicidally noble, provided that is the expectation at the table.

I do expect paladins at my table to be virtuous and just. I don't insist that they must be suicidally so, in large part because I don't generally provide deus ex machina bailouts if they behave as such. If, at my table, you want to suicide your paladin charging an unbeatable dragon then you're welcome to do so. You'll die, but maybe that's the ending you had in mind. If you decide instead to bide your time until you can round up a posse to deal with the evil beast, that's even better.

 

[Hussar]

Dying is the easy way out. Living with failure is the true test of morality.

 

[Umbran]

When Peter denied the Lord three times before sunrise to save his skin, that was seen as a moral failure, not as Good.

I do not refer to the Christian Bible, or any other real-world religious texts, for analysis of what good or evil is in game terms.

 

[Oofta]

...
We had a similar situation at the start of that campaign where our massively outmatched 1st level PCs confronted the BBEG and his minions to defend a peasant village; knowing we would die but still standing up for what was right - and with the enemy unsure of our capability, we were able to negotiate a partial solution.
...

In my game PCs don't have plot armor. If a lone PC tried to face down an invading army (or a high level BBEG and minions powerful enough to take out entire villages) they would need to make one hell of a deception/intimidation check with a lot of magical support.

A level 1 PC trying this? Pincussion, their head on a pike paraded through the town. They'd be made an example of. Why? Because that would be realistic. Yes, there are people with incredible power in the world but the odds of one showing up in a random village wearing chainmail with no obvious signs of power? Enemies aren't stupid. It might be worth a few chuckles before they kill the PC.

Best case scenario? The leader of the army thinks it's funny, takes all the PCs stuff and either takes them captive or leaves them alive after killing everyone in the village in front of them.

I make a point of letting people know in a session 0 that if their PC does something really stupid they'll probably die. Of course if I had a PC try this I'd do a sidebar and explain this all. I'll make it clear when they state their intentions and let them know what the likely consequences are.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Just because an NPC is high level doesn't mean they automatically have a high Insight skill. Even given that the NPC would probably have advantage on the check, I could easily see a low level PC with Expertise in Deception pulling off something like this.

 

[Oofta]

Just because an NPC is high level doesn't mean they automatically have a high Insight skill. Even given that the NPC would probably have advantage on the check, I could easily see a low level PC with Expertise in Deception pulling off something like this.

Deception (or persuasion for that matter) is not mind control. Deception needs to be reasonably plausible.

I don't run NPCs as piles of stats, although stats do play into their reactions. A monumentally stupid monster like an ogre will be easier to bluff.

But standard BBEG? That first level PC might have convinced them they were delusional, but that's about it.

 

[S'mon]

I do not refer to the Christian Bible, or any other real-world religious texts, for analysis of what good or evil is in game terms.

I don't think you have much of a take on LG morality. Even in 5e.

 

[Oofta]

I don't think you have much of a take on LG morality. Even in 5e.

That has nothing to do with not wanting religious texts referenced in a D&D forum.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Then they're Evil, possibly with a Neutral tendency.

Not that I track Alignment in my 5e games. I don't care what players put on their PC sheet.

Yeah, no. Get that garbage out of here.

Alignment - at least in 5e, which is the edition being discussed in OP's scenario - has alignment as a description of general trends in your behaviour. One off-alignment act won't flip your alignment entirely. Barring magic items and/or planar corruption, you need to be consistently and willfully acting counter to the alignment on your character sheet for an alignment change to be warranted.

 

[S'mon]

In my game PCs don't have plot armor. If a lone PC tried to face down an invading army (or a high level BBEG and minions powerful enough to take out entire villages) they would need to make one hell of a deception/intimidation check with a lot of magical support.

A level 1 PC trying this? Pincussion, their head on a pike paraded through the town. They'd be made an example of. Why? Because that would be realistic. Yes, there are people with incredible power in the world but the odds of one showing up in a random village wearing chainmail with no obvious signs of power? Enemies aren't stupid. It might be worth a few chuckles before they kill the PC.

Best case scenario? The leader of the army thinks it's funny, takes all the PCs stuff and either takes them captive or leaves them alive after killing everyone in the village in front of them.

It wasn't an 'army', there were maybe a dozen, and we did eventually beat them around 4th level, which being 5e was only a few sessions, and a few adventuring days.. In the initial encounter they didn't have any way to see that we were 1st level not 4th - not even any reason to think 5e NPCs understand the concept of Level, after all they almost certainly don't have one! And even at 1st level we might have killed one or two of the weaker ones, it's not like we were zero threat. I don't think our GM did anything wrong with how she ran it.

Likewise, I don't see a dragon as knowing whether any particular knight is 3rd, 7th or 15th level; they'll probably be influenced by apparent gear. Certainly a 7th level Paladin is going to appear competent.