D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[Hussar]

So why are you disagreeing with my posts which are entirely about this?

I get the feeling that we are really talking past each other.

You have stated, repeatedly, that the paladin has committed an evil act. I disagree. I do not think the paladin committed an evil act at all. You have stated that the paladin should have killed himself, or offered himself in the NPC's stead otherwise, it's an evil act and violating his oath. At least, that's what I understood you as saying. I'm saying that the paladin in no way committed an evil act, but, was instead a victim here and, if he has anything to atone for, it should be completely up to the player.

 

[Hussar]

The paladin clearly can force the dragon's hand - are you really prepared to use force to get this NPC, given that I've persuaded you that it's in your interests that I live?

And of course the dragon can knock the paladin unconscious without killing him - we don't need the much-vaunted "rulings not rules" to get that result, it's right there in the zero hp rules.

So, so long as the Paladin takes enough damage, then he's exonerated? He doesn't actually have to die, just take damage. How much damage would that be? If he takes half his HP, is that sufficient? A quarter? 1 HP?

Basically, as soon as you open that door, all we're doing is haggling over the price. He has to take enough damage that the DM is happy? Is that the metric we're using?

And, again, you're presuming things that aren't actually there. How do you know you've persuaded the dragon to let the paladin live? All he's done is say, "Leave the man, you can go." That's certainly not a promise of anything. That's an ultimatum. If you don't leave the man, you will die.

 

[Hussar]

If I fire a gun at a gun range not knowing that there is someone completely obscured by the target and I kill them, it's not murder. It's an accident

Just to jump on the other side of the fence here. At the very least, the range safety officer is guity of gross negligence for allowing someone to fire on an uncleared range. Granted, you'd never be convicted of murder, but, by the same token, the RSO here is very much culpable in this and will face some very stiff penalties.

This is perhaps not a good example @Oofta. Gun ranges have very, very strict safety standards and, for there to be someone down range, obscured by the target but still in danger of being shot means that someone seriously screwed up.

 

[chaochou]

How is this martyrdom? What greater purpose is being served? He accomplishes absolutely nothing. He dies, the man dies. A martyr needs to stand for something no? A martyr needs to accomplish something no? What was accomplished here? What purpose was served.

All you're displaying is utter ignorance of martyrdom - and of the meaning of faith.

The paladin serves the purpose of maintaining their faith even in the face of overwhelming odds. They serve as a symbol of others not to abandon hope. It's a huge accomplishment, a great honour, incredibly worthy.

 

[Xenonnonex]

During our session tonight, the party's paladin got in trouble. He was carrying an injured NPC to safety. Unfortunately, an adult dragon cornered him.
"Give me that man, and you can live. I hunger" it said. I had hoped he would stare it down with a bit of god-fuelled determination.
"OK" Said the paladin, and the dragon flew off with the screaming man.
The player admitted, 'I wanted to live'. He figured he should live to fight another day (and continue on the world-saving adventure the party are part way through).
I don't want to punish the player so much that he drops out of the game, but I think there have to be repercussions (ours is not a slapstick murderhobo game).
He is 7th level with a level of warlock (! I know...)
How would you handle this. If he becomes an oathbreaker, does that replace his previous paladin levels, so he becomes a 7th level oathbreaker?
Is that too punishing?
If he becomes an oathbreaker, I plan to talk to him about taking a vow to find a way back into his gods good graces, such as by returning to slay the dragon AND find resurrection for the dead man.

If it was through forced coercion is that really considered murder of the innocent?
In any case have the paladin atone for that misdeed. Becoming an Oathbreaker through that is too harsh.

 

[Maxperson]

The paladin should have confronted the dragon. If you’re genuine about role playing a character of faith, not just paying lip service for the image rights, there’s great honour and worth in martyrdom.

Especially when you can take the entire world with you. It's really great to do then.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree. Sophie did nothing wrong or evil. But it's not solely about belief. Some of the most evil people in history believe they are doing good and yet that doesn't make them good. Like the old proverb says, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Belief nor intent alone just are not enough to move something from immoral to moral.

It doesn't really matter, though. Being coerced is enough to make the handover unwilling on the part of the paladin, so while it's an oath violation, it's not one that can result in the loss of paladin abilities or becoming an oathbreaker. Not without a house rule anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Doesn't matter what the player or Paladin thought. Morality isn't defined by a person's perception of events around them.

Um, society determines what is and is not moral, so perception it the only way to determine what defines morality. If a society perceives something as immoral, it is. If another society percieves the same thing to be moral, it is. Wars have been fought over conflicting moralities.

 

[Maxperson]

You're nonetheless making assumptions based on incomplete information (just like the rest of us).

The DM has said that he believes the player thought that it was done and he had no other choice. Assuming he knows his players, that's good enough for me to factor that in. It's not like we're making this up out of the blue.

 

[Hussar]

All you're displaying is utter ignorance of martyrdom - and of the meaning of faith.

The paladin serves the purpose of maintaining their faith even in the face of overwhelming odds. They serve as a symbol of others not to abandon hope. It's a huge accomplishment, a great honour, incredibly worthy.

Really? What hope is being kindled here? What honour? Being dragon chow? Senselessly throwing away your life to accomplish nothing? For a paladin whose oath directly states that you should revere life above all things? You talk about faith, but, ignore the actual faith of the paladin in question.

I get the point about martyrdom, I do. But, thing is, there needs to be some sort of a cause to be a martyr to. Some symbol besides, "You are crunchy and taste good with ketchup". This is a pointless death, not a martyrdom.

Becoming a martyr is more than just committing suicide by dragon. Otherwise your world must have an awful lot of martyrs.