Paladins in 3.5, why?

[Kevmann10583]

OH MY GOD

I am sorry, but as I read through this thread, you guys have misconstrued my quotes, you have put half of the quote down, protested it, even though the REST OF THE QUOTE WENT AGAINST YOUR PROTEST, and generaly ignored what parts that that suit you.

And to some of you "Oh, he can lie if someone stole a loaf of bread from their family" "Sure he can just go around slaughtering people he detects as evil." "He is above everything and all things because he is on a mission from god" "The paladin can do anything he wants, even evil and choatic acts, as long as it searves the greater good!"

This makes me sad
I am sorry, but the people who made comments like this have lost the true meaning of what a paladin exactly is. Some of you belive that the paladin should be NG, because a person who is neutral good always things of the greater good over all else. But you see, the paladin is NOT NG, he is LG, there is a very big difference. Some of you belive that the paladin should be down right evil, I don't know who you are, but slaughtering people on the street just because the register as evil is murder in cold blood, and it insites choas, I think all of you should realy look at the paladin one more time and see exactly what he is.

TAKEN FROM THE PHB:
The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold the law ... Additionally, paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness... a paladin's code requires that she respoect legitimate authority, act with honor... and punish those that harm or threaten innocents

DId you see in there, running around slaughtering people that register evil? those people may or may not harm or threaten innocents. If a person steals a loaf of bread to feed his family, I am sorry, the paladin must report it, because that person is doing an evil act by steeling a piece of bread that someone else worked hard for and deserves. That person should bet some sort of job, and work for his bread. If his children are straving, then the paladin may help, but will NEVER condone lieing.

"The paladin enters the town and looks around, he sees a guard take a bribe from a small man trying to exit the town, and the paladin yells "I PROCLAIM THAT THIS TOWN DOES NOT HAVE A LEGITAMITE LAW, THEREFORE I AM ABOVE IT AND DO NO HAVE TO FOLLOW ANY OF YOUR LAWS, I DO NOT HAVE TO ALLOW YOU TO GET A FIAR TRIAL, AND I DO NOT HAVE TO EVEN KNOW WHAT YOUR CRIME IS!!!! I SENSE A FEW EVIL PEOPLE IN THIS SQUARE, LET THE SLAUGHTERING BEGIN!"

I am sorry, a paladin is a compassionate force that balances law and goodness. The paladin IS NOT above everyone else because he is on a mission from god, just because he is on a mission from god does not mean he IS god. THE ENDS DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS, it does to a CG or NG person, but not to a LG paladin.

A paladin can not lie, he would rather die in most cases then lie. If a situation means that he must lie to save hundreds of innocents, and there is no way around it (I can not see such a situation, but lets us just belive that it excists) then he will lie, but he WILL BE FORFIET HIS POWERS UNTILL HE CAN ACCEPT AN ATONEMENT. Did you know that a paladin loses all of his powers if he does an evil act while under a DOMINATE PERSON SPELL? THat is right, even if the paladins BODY is forced to do an evil act, he LOSES HIS POWER!!!! That is how stricked it realy is... don't belive me? Read the atonement spell.

A paladin must always follow the law, and allow a fiar trial for those who are evil, or allow god to choose who is right or wrong in a duel. The paladin is not god, he does not even speak with gods mouth, he is not above the law. A paladin who belives he is above the law is on a one way road to a blackguard. Because a paladin who belives he is above all law is a TYRANT!!!! And a paladin can't just have a "hunch" that a law system is corrupt, he musthave solid proof, because if he is wrong and goes against a legitamte law system, he loses his powers. The paladin works WITH the law to get good means, he belives everyone should recive a fair trial, or at least a duel so the gods can determine who is right or wrong!

The paladin is not a beliver in the ends justifies the means. Lieing is an evil act, you are misconsiving a person to beliveing something that is not true. The paladin is the champion of truth, if he lies, he becomes the very monster he is trying to destroy!

Those of you who have these horrible misconseptions, you are ruining the pureness of a paladin for other people, and giving paladins around the world a bad rap.

You know what, if you think I am wrong, that is your opinion and you can have the paladin core class any way you like it in your games. But do not come on this board and state it as if it is fact for all games that they should be able to slaughter people and be above the law, and do your house rules as how they are for all games. Say that "you belive" that paladins should be able to do this. But I am sorry, champions of truth, law, and good would never lie, sow chaos, or slaughter pople without trials, that sounds much more like a blackguard to me.

 

[drothgery]

You won't regret it. Took me forever to break down and buy it. Very inspirational stuff in there. The Holy Warrior class is great and can be dropped into just about any campaign world with ease.

... and just as an FYI for anyone getting the wrong idea, Book of the Righteous Holy Warriors have to be Good (though it's deity-specific whether they're Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic).

 

[Kevmann10583]

Let me further explain my case, these exerts were gotten from the Book of Vile Darkness.

"In a fantasy world based on an objective definition of evil, ikilling an evil creature to stop it from doing further harm is not an evil act... such a justification, however, works only for the slaying of creatures of , such as chromatic dragonsconsummate, irredeemable evil"

Thats right, slaughtering a guy who registers evil walking down the street is called AN EVIL ACT, and the paladin forever looses ALL OF HIS POWERS!!!!

 

[Mark Chance]

You know what, if you think I am wrong, that is your opinion and you can have the paladin core class any way you like it in your games.

How civil of you to grant us the permission to play the game in a way that differs from your own.

But do not come on this board and state it as if it is fact for all games that they should be able to slaughter people and be above the law, and do your house rules as how they are for all games.

Why not? You've done the same thing with your house rules about paladins.

Say that "you belive" that paladins should be able to do this. But I am sorry, champions of truth, law, and good would never lie, sow chaos, or slaughter pople without trials, that sounds much more like a blackguard to me.

Take your own advice. For example, your last sentence should have been (emphasis added):

Corrected text from material originally posted by Kevmann10583
I believe that champions of truth, law, and good would never lie, sow chaos, or slaughter pople without trials, that sounds much more like a blackguard to me.

See how much better that is? After all, you're talking about nothing more than your opinion.

Also, when dealing with moral philosophy, it is important to remember the great qualifier: "All things being equal". What I mean is this (to use your own house rules):

Corrected text with great qualifier from material originally posted by Kevmann10583
I believe that, all things being equal, champions of truth, law, and good would never lie, sow chaos, or slaughter pople without trials, that sounds much more like a blackguard to me.

The great qualifier is necessary because the word "never" in moral philosophy is bothersome, to say the least. It often automatically renders a statement false since it is often possible to come up with a single instance in which what is normally impermissible becomes permissible (or even obligatory).

For example, if I can think of a single situation in which a paladin would be allowed to lie, sow chaos, and/or slaughter people without trials, then your entire argument (as originally stated) crumbles.

 

[Kevmann10583]

Yet again, you pick out one small thing of my post and focus on it, completly ignoring the rest.

And also, there is proof in the Book of Vile Darkness that mudrering people that register evil on the street is evil. That is fact, not opinion.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yet again, you pick out one small thing of my post and focus on it, completly ignoring the rest.

And also, there is proof in the Book of Vile Darkness that mudrering people that register evil on the street is evil. That is fact, not opinion.

What the heck are all these facts? You're talking as if this is written down in the U.S. Constitution and the police will come and arrest people if they don't play Paladins the "correct" way.

Besides, if you want to talk about rules, then remember rule zero. The entire game is up to interpretation and modification.

 

[TheMilitantOne]

To quote the 3rd Edition D&D Player's Handbook, "No one chooses to be a paladin." I know it's speaking from a character point of view instead of a player POV, but when I first read that I just burst into tears with laughter. Although the pally hasn't been a popular class in the adventures I've been in, they've always come in very handy whenever there was one around. They ARE the epitome of a holy warrior. You just have to know how to play one properly.

 

[Mark Chance]

Yet again, you pick out one small thing of my post and focus on it, completly ignoring the rest.

Are you talking to me? Not sure.

If so, I didn't pick out one small thing. I picked the entire thrust of your argument, pointed out ways to improve that argument, and further asserted that I could demonstrate that the unimproved argument is easily refuted.

And also, there is proof in the Book of Vile Darkness that mudrering people that register evil on the street is evil. That is fact, not opinion.

How amusing. I wasn't aware that the BoVD was actually fact (or even core rules). And, again, you're making the same mistake as before: You're leaving out the great qualifier. All things being equal, "mudrering people that register evil on the street is evil."

If I come up with a single instance where it is not evil to kill someone in the street because that person registers evil, then I have demolished your claim.

 

[Mark Chance]

The proof is in the pudding...

Originally posted by Kevmann10583
But I am sorry, champions of truth, law, and good would never lie, sow chaos, or slaughter pople without trials, that sounds much more like a blackguard to me.

Situation #1: A halfling paladin of Yondalla, under orders from Yondalla herself, has infiltrated a prison ghetto run by hobgoblin soldiers who serve a violent, expansionist nation ruled by a power-mad hobgoblin warlord. The central facet of this warlord's ideology is that halflings were to blame for the hobgoblin nation being defeated in the Great War, and that halflings are a sort of living disease that infects every land in which they are found. Consequently, the hobgoblins are making a concerted effort to imprison every halfling in occupied territories. Halflings are "quarantined" in ghettos until fortified wagons can be brought into each city in order to transport the halflings to the dreaded Salt Acid Flats of the east. The halflings are then tossed into the acid pits and killed.

The halfling paladin snuck into one of the ghettos and hid her paladin gear with a brave family of partisans. In order to allay suspicious hobgoblins and collaborators, she is posing as a seamstress. She claims to have no strong religious beliefs because followers of Yondalla are targeted for "special treatment." Also, if her true nature were revealed, serious reprisals would be visited upon those who have aided and sheltered her.

Part of the paladin's mission includes arming and training a platoon of ghetto fighters. Obviously, this requires great secrecy and deception to avoid detection. When the fortified wagons arrive, the paladin and her ghetto fighters mingle with the crowd, weapons concealed. Once the group of deportees is at the station, the paladin gives the battle call. She and the ghetto fighters sow chaos in order that deportees may escape (aided, of course, by the anti-hobgoblin underground). They also slaughter a few of the hobgoblin guards.

There you have it: A paladin who lies, sows chaos, and slaughters others without granting them proper trials.

Originally posted by Kevmann10583
And also, there is proof in the Book of Vile Darkness that mudrering people that register evil on the street is evil. That is fact, not opinion.

Situation #2: The same halfling paladin, in a vision from Yondalla herself, has been warned that a traitor has infiltrated the ghetto fighters and will be at the next meeting in order to gather intelligence. Yondalla tells the paladin that this traitor will be the only evil person at the meeting. The paladin arranges to have each ghetto fighter enter the meeting one at a time. She uses her detect evil on each one. When she finds the evil halfling, she attacks by surprise and slaughters him right there in the street outside the home hosting the meeting.

There you have it: A paladin who slaughters someone in the street because that someone detects as evil.

 

[Valiantheart]

I'd prefer opening the class up to more alignments. Tweaking his spell lists, inherent abilities, and code along the way.