Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[AnthonyJ]

Elder-Basilisk:

As for your points on the Paladin. I think that the Kobolds are more of a threat than you classify them as. Why should the Paladin wait for clearly evil creatures to to develop into truly dangerous foes before dealing with them?

A significant issue here is the precise nature of kobolds -- are they inherently evil, or can they be taught better? The fact that their alignment is given as 'Usually LE' means that at least some kobolds _can_ be taught better, though the rules are not specific on how easy this is, or how many could reasonably be converted. As such, this is an issue for the DM, and the DMs answer is rather important to the entire ethical question here.

And of course, the fact that they detect as Evil is irrefutable proof of the nature of their characters.

No, it's irrefutable proof that they detect as evil. There are several ways in which detect evil can be wrong, though admittedly none are likely to apply in this case.

Also, I think that the "larger context" you speak of would simply be an excuse not to do what is right. Yes, it is just one Kobold tribe. But if destroying that Kobold tribe saves innocent lives, and punishes Evil, then the Paladin has done all that he needs to do.

Many of the kobolds are factually innocent; they may be malicious by nature, but they haven't actually done anything. As such, destroying the kobold tribe is not saving innocent lives, it's costing innocent lives.

Actually, the Paladins main target seems to be Calcryx, not the Kobolds. I would also say that Paladins are the least likely to become Blackguards. It is harder to tempt and corrupt a pure soul than it is one filled with vice.

The issue is not corruption, the issue is lack of judgement. If you're certain that your actions are right and just, it's very easy to do evil things.

There could well be Blackguards who believe they are paladins.

 

[maddman75]

I think the most important thing is to realize how your DM views paladins and alignment. I would point out that the alignment given for kobolds is "Usually LE", meaning that not only are exceptions possible, but they aren't exactly rare either. Therefore the paladin would have NO justification in preemptively slaughtering them, even if they did detect as evil. The class ability is an aid, this isn't Minority Report.

Now dragons have an "always" in front of their alignment. Exceptions are so rare that they generally aren't even acknoledged. He may have a case for Calcryx. But this begs the question why did he agree to help the kobolds in the first place? Now that he has, attacking the kobolds because the dragon that he helped rescue might attack the good folk in Oakhurst will only break the oath he made with them.

He is in a pickle to be certain. If he attacks the kobolds, he will be slaughtering the weak and helpless. If he lets them keep the dragon, he is aiding evil. Perhaps the only reasonable way would be to steal the dragon back, or kill it underhandedly. This would be chaotic and may temporarily cost him his paladinhood. But better that than committing a slaughter.

Again, this all depends on your DM. If he's not into this shades of gray stuff, detect evil and start hacking on anything that makes you feel queasy. But do that in another DM's game and you may find that while the person in question was a rotten S.O.B. at heart, he was still innocent. At least not deserving of a paladin's blade. That way does lie the path of the Blackguard.

 

[LuYangShih]

AnthonyJ:

Yes, Detect Evil can be fooled, but as noted earlier in this thread, that is obviously not the case here. Furthermore, it is not the Paladins duty to attempt to redeem Evil creatures. The Evil creature or creatures in question would have to show a heartfelt desire to change before redemption could be possible, and I doubt the Kobolds are doing so.

None of the Kobolds that detect as Evil are factually innocent, because of the way the D&D alignment system works. If they are of an Evil alignment, than they have taken actions that made them that alignment. Also, I think a Paladin is almost required to be certain of his actions before he takes them, otherwise how can he act in good conscience? One does not wage a holy war if one is uncertain of the righteousness of the cause being fought for.

maddman75:

The Paladin is going to target the Dragon first and foremost. He is going to make a formal request that the Dragon be handed over for execution to him. A very Paladinesque approach, I think, fulfilling both the Lawful and Good aspects of his alignment. Only if Yusadryl refuses to allow him to execute the creature will he take action against the Kobolds. I think he should also deal with the Kobolds regardless, but I can understand why he does not wish to take that action unless forced to. The Kobolds may be weak, but they are certainly not helpless. They are cunning and manipulative creatures, with a decidedly sadistic side to them. And you really cannot be a "Rotten S.O.B. at heart" and still be Neutral.

 

[AnthonyJ]

AnthonyJ:

Yes, Detect Evil can be fooled, but as noted earlier in this thread, that is obviously not the case here. Furthermore, it is not the Paladins duty to attempt to redeem Evil creatures.

I disagree. Even the literary precedent for such characters disagrees; sure, they don't convert everyone they come across, but if they get into a conversation with someone, they offer the chance for repentance (which is generally rejected, but at least the offer is made).

Now, if the paladin marches into the kobold lair, tells them they must repent, describes what they should do to show their penance -- and gets attacked (a likely result), the ethical dilemna is significantly reduced.

None of the Kobolds that detect as Evil are factually innocent, because of the way the D&D alignment system works. If they are of an Evil alignment, than they have taken actions that made them that alignment.

In that case, the majority of Kobolds will not detect as evil; they simply haven't had the opportunity to take actions that made them evil.

 

[LuYangShih]

And I can cite just as many literary examples of noble warriors killing without offering a chance of repentance. That is a false, and impractical ideal. You do not offer redemption to creatures who show no intention of accepting it.

As for the given alignment of the majority of the Kobolds, that depends entirely on how Kobold culture works. By the book, 51% of Kobolds are LE. I am sure a significant portion would also fall under NE. Given that, I am sure Kobolds are given ample opportunity to express their Evil natures. Kobolds are generally sadistic, vicious creatures who enjoy tormenting other beings. The only reason they are not more of a threat is because of their inherent weakness. Given opportunity, they could do a great deal of harm.

 

[maddman75]

AnthonyJ:
maddman75:

The Paladin is going to target the Dragon first and foremost. He is going to make a formal request that the Dragon be handed over for execution to him. A very Paladinesque approach, I think, fulfilling both the Lawful and Good aspects of his alignment. Only if Yusadryl refuses to allow him to execute the creature will he take action against the Kobolds. I think he should also deal with the Kobolds regardless, but I can understand why he does not wish to take that action unless forced to. The Kobolds may be weak, but they are certainly not helpless. They are cunning and manipulative creatures, with a decidedly sadistic side to them. And you really cannot be a "Rotten S.O.B. at heart" and still be Neutral.

You can be a rotten SOB at heart and *detect as evil*, yet still not have done anything to deserve execution. It would be an entirely different situation if the kobolds had been raiding, allied with the goblins, or otherwise participating in evil doings. What really bothers me is the paladin agreed to go on this mission in the first place. At the minimum I'd have him get some warnings from his deity about breaking his word.

I've actually ran this adventure before, and had a paladin in the group. IIRC, when they were asked to get 'our dragon' back, they'd thought it to be an idol of some kind, as kobolds owning a dragon didn't quite add up. When they found it, they killed Calcryx and threw the body at the feet of the queen, telling her that they wouldn't suffer such a creature to live in the region. The kobolds took exception to that idea...

 

[WizarDru]

I would also say that Paladins are the least likely to become Blackguards. It is harder to tempt and corrupt a pure soul than it is one filled with vice. Perhaps the Paladin cannot save the world, but that does not mean he should not try.

Those who sit the highest have the furthest to fall, and when paladins fall, they fall hard. There's a reason that a blackguard can convert his paladin levels into Blackguard levels...it implies the heroic idealized knight turning irrevocably to evil.

From the SRD: "
Blackguards who possess levels of Paladin (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they possess. Those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains."

You may not believe that paladins are corruptible, or even corruptible that often, but they DO fall. I know you've read Sepulchrave's Story hour, so you see the tightrope that a Paladin walks.

And I said they couldn't, not that they shouldn't try. Don Quixote was a Paladin, even if he was delusional. We all should be so delusional. Tilting at windmills is the very essence of the Paladin.

 

[AnthonyJ]

When they found it, they killed Calcryx and threw the body at the feet of the queen, telling her that they wouldn't suffer such a creature to live in the region. The kobolds took exception to that idea...

Heck, eliminating the dragon is probably doing the kobolds a favor. Do they really want a stupid, unpredictable, greedy, lazy, violent predator as a pet? Chaotic evil creatures really aren't good neighbors.

Not that they'll see it that way, of course. At least, not without some application of diplomacy. With a bit of diplomacy, you might be able to convince them that this really was in their best interests...

 

[Trainz]

You see guys, that's the very thing: Kobolds have the same alignment solidity as Ogres:

Ogres: Usually chaotic evil
Kobolds: Usually lawful evil

Now, switch the kobolds in sunless citadel for ogres, and we wouldn't have this conversation.

Why ?

Ogres are stronger, thus more dangerous.

That doesn't make the Ogres more evil. Just weaker than kobolds. Kobolds may not be a threat to cities, but they damn sure are one to farms and hamlets.

Some of you guys have an inclination to spare the kobolds. That a 1st level Paladin should spare them.

Would you want a 15th level Paladin so spare a group of Ogres in an underground castle that owns a Young Adult Green Dragon ?

That's what I thought.

 

[DM_Matt]

If the paladin judges that they are (or will be--the idea that a paladin shouldn't act until the bad guys are ready to wipe out the entire world is silly) a threat to good communities in the area and that he has the skill, strength, and companions to be successful in his endeavor (the paladin accomplishes nothing by getting himself and his allies killed in a hopeless and unnecessary battle), he would have reason to attack them.

A lesson worth learning IRL as well....