Paladins with powers being deluded/deceived?

[Gwaihir]

Does a Paladin get to keep his powers, if he believes he is pursuing a noble/worthy goal?

IMC, there is a group(not the PCs, in fact the PCs often run afoul of this group) seeking to destroy all undead. While the upper tier certainly knows this to be a ruse, the level that the paladins are operating at certainly would not. In reality the group is seeking to open a way for the return of the elves, long since exiled from this reality/plane and now a malevolent, undead force.

Thanks
Gwaihir

 

[Celebrim]

Does a Paladin get to keep his powers, if he believes he is pursuing a noble/worthy goal?

IMC, there is a group(not the PCs, in fact the PCs often run afoul of this group) seeking to destroy all undead. While the upper tier certainly knows this to be a ruse, the level that the paladins are operating at certain would not. In reality the group is seeking to open a way for the return of the elves, long since exiled from this reality/plane and now a malevolent, undead force.

Thanks
Gwaihir

Has he committed evil?

If a Paladin commits evil unknowingly, he still loses his powers temporarily until he can redeem himself.

Paladins are divine spell-casters. Divine spellcasters receive their power from an external source. An evil organization attempting to misuse Paladins would probably quickly find itself on the receiving end of the Paladin's righteous wrath. In order for the deception to work, they have to not only deceive the Paladin but whomever the Paladin reports too.

 

[GSHamster]

I find these sorts of alignment questions work better with a "results, not intentions" mindset.

Are the paladins doing good? They are killing undead, which is generally good. So the paladins are still good and keep their powers.

 

[Greenfield]

My reading of the Paladin's code say that he can't willingly perform an Evil act. And to me, you can't "willingly" do something that you don't know you're doing. So if he's being mislead and doesn't know that what he's doing is Evil, he doesn't lose anything.

Now, realistically, he should probably use his Detect Evil ability on people giving him orders/missions, which may help keep the situation from arising in the first place.

He might also do a sanity check as he goes, and bring things to a grinding halt when he sees that he's been mislead.

And, to be honest, even the people providing him with information and/or missions could be mistaken or misinformed, so that there's no Evil intended anywhere along the line. But the moment he becomes aware that the actions are Evil, he has to stop.

In any and every case he should take action to set things right.

But consider "temporal matter". Lord Bullspackle of Moronia and the House of Cattlepaste of Idiotania are going to war against each other, either because their kingdoms are at war, or because of local territorial conflicts. Each, of course, rallies their troops the way leaders have since time immemorial: "God is on our side!", they cry, citing all of the reported wrongs done by their "evil" foes.

Hell, the leaders might even believe it. But good men may end up fighting other good men for some very bad reasons. (Or maybe even good ones, like resources that are sufficient to maintain one Duchy but not two.)

What's a Paladin to do in a case like that? Refuse to support his Lord, to whom he has sworn fealty? Refuse to fight good men? (Who are, by the way, busily trying to kill him,his friends and family.)

Whether the temporal cause is money, trade, access to a key waterway or a crucial resource like a salt mine, it's entirely possible that the matter has to be settled in blood, and there is no "Good" way out.

In which case, it really sucks to be the Paladin.

 

[Dandu]

But consider "temporal matter". Lord Bullspackle of Moronia and the House of Cattlepaste of Idiotania are going to war against each other, either because their kingdoms are at war, or because of local territorial conflicts. Each, of course, rallies their troops the way leaders have since time immemorial: "God is on our side!", they cry, citing all of the reported wrongs done by their "evil" foes.

Hell, the leaders might even believe it. But good men may end up fighting other good men for some very bad reasons. (Or maybe even good ones, like resources that are sufficient to maintain one Duchy but not two.)

What's a Paladin to do in a case like that? Refuse to support his Lord, to whom he has sworn fealty? Refuse to fight good men? (Who are, by the way, busily trying to kill him,his friends and family.)

Whether the temporal cause is money, trade, access to a key waterway or a crucial resource like a salt mine, it's entirely possible that the matter has to be settled in blood, and there is no "Good" way out.

In which case, it really sucks to be the Paladin.

Do paladins swear fealty to a man instead of a church, an order, or a deity?

And if so, why can't he support his lord?

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

I would argue that a pointless little war harms and threatens innocents, which takes precedence over respecting legitimate authority.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do paladins swear fealty to a man instead of a church, an order, or a deity?

Good question.

My answer, based on what I have read of he literature & legends that inspired the class, is this: a Paladin may swear fealty to a lord and take vows within his church, but he is personally chosen by the divine being/ force that granted him his powers. To that entity, he owes his primary duty.

Regarding the example, there was an ooooold Dragon article on Paladins at war, and the author noted that nothing in the vows prevented Paladins from ending up on opposing sides or even coming to blows with each other.

As to the primary question of the thread, I say that to lose his powers, a paladin has to know he is committing an act contrary to his vows to lose his powers.

So as long as he is deceived by the fraud of another in committing acts contrary to his vows, he retains his powers. But once he becomes aware of the deception, he is forced to decide whether to continue. If he feels he is under duress and acts against his vows, he loses his powers. But since he is not acting willingly, he can regain them.

 

[Gwaihir]

Great Input - Thanks all.

So based on what Ive heard, if the paladin vows his fealty/derives his power directly from a deity, then the deity would also need to be deceived by the ruse, if IMC the power of a paladin is derived from a church or a cause, then that body would need to be deceived. But should the paladin become aware of this deceit, he would be mandated by his personal code to "flip sides" That actually might make for some meaty roleplaying.

G

 

[tomBitonti]

Wouldn't this be an appropriate time for the Paladin's deity to throw out a few tests, to give the Paladin a hint that there was something amiss?

A conceit of the Paladin is that his faith is strong enough to carry him or her through the vilest of evil, so see through the most treacherous of plans.

In the real world, tricks abound, and probably anyone could be tricked into doing very evil things.

Fantasy world, it oughtn't to work.

Even if the Paladin's superiors (or even, a divine agent) were tricked, the deity should reign supreme, and provide a path forward for the Paladin.

Now ... there is a question of how much suspicion a Paladin should have: Is blind faith sufficient, or should a Paladin look for evil even among his leaders? That seems more a play style issue, maybe too difficult to play through.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wouldn't this be an appropriate time for the Paladin's deity to throw out a few tests, to give the Paladin a hint that there was something amiss?

A conceit of the Paladin is that his faith is strong enough to carry him or her through the vilest of evil, so see through the most treacherous of plans.

In the real world, tricks abound, and probably anyone could be tricked into doing very evil things.

Fantasy world, it oughtn't to work.

Even if the Paladin's superiors (or even, a divine agent) were tricked, the deity should reign supreme, and provide a path forward for the Paladin.

Now ... there is a question of how much suspicion a Paladin should have: Is blind faith sufficient, or should a Paladin look for evil even among his leaders? That seems more a play style issue, maybe too difficult to play through.

Thx!

TomB

Well, deities in fantasy settings tend not to be omniscient nor omnipresent. Even a god may not be aware of a fraud, and even if they are, they may have more important things to do.

As such, their servitors may be just as succeptible to fraud as any other being.

 

[MarkB]

I don't think this question can be divorced from considering PC paladins unless you're 100% sure that you'll never, ever run a campaign involving a paladin PC in which the PCs are tricked into doing something that turns out to have bad consequences. And since that sort of deception is a staple of both storytelling and RPGs, that seems unlikely.

So ask yourself: Do I want to have the paladin PC lose his powers every time a bad guy fools him? And, on the other hand, do I want my bad guys to be unable to ever fool the party into doing wrong, because the paladin's deity tips him off whenever he's about to inadvertently be bad?

Decide on your preferred answers to these questions, and set your campaign's ground rules accordingly.