Palladium Fantasy: Why the Hate?

[Crothian]

Also sounds like Palladium just isn't as popular as he would like it to be.

They are still popular just not around here and that makes sense since it is a D&D board.

 

[Reynard]

Sounds like the op should have been asking, "where's the love?" rather than "where's the hate?"

Also sounds like Palladium just isn't as popular as he would like it to be.

Or, you could have read the first post.

 

[HellHound]

You had to roll your stats in order, and the DM wouldn't let us change that order because many of the races had weird stats (eg roll 3d6 for Physical Strength, roll 4d6 for Physical Prowess, etc). Lots of core races got overpowered stats; I think elves got +6 P.P., and trolls (core!?!) got huge bonuses for P.S. If you roll an 18, or maybe it was even any time you got a 6 on a d6, you were entitled to add extra dice, so your stats inflated fast. The bonuses for really high stats was broken because (and only because) of the high stats you could get. Then there were the skills, some of which would boost stats yet again. I always took Boxing, Running and one more (I forget which) to get the extra attacks, but when trying to avoid the other ones (bumped stats too much) I was actually told by the DM to take them.

Ugh. I hadn't realized they had brought over the physical skills from TMNT / Rifts / etc to Palladium in the second edition of the game. In the original and revised editions, there were no skills that provided stat bonuses. (No Boxing, Running, Acrobatics, etc).

Elves get 4D6 for PP and 5D6 for PB
Trolls get 5D6 for Strength, but only 2D6 for most mental stats. But large size in that game was a little on the awesome side.

But, as usual for games of that era, this was supposed to be controlled through role playing - trolls are not welcome in towns, and the wolfen are the traditional enemies of all of the human-like races, so no one likes them at all.

Stat generation did indeed have some problems. If you rolled an 11 or 12 on 2d6, you got to roll a third d6. If you rolled a 16-18 on 3d6, you got to roll a fourth d6. If you got over 3d6 for a roll, you never got to roll additional dice, and if you started with 2d6, you couldn't get more than 3d6.

The Two-Weapon Fighting rules were busted. They were so good there was no reason not to take it.

Hrmmm... again something from the new edition I guess. Not finding them in the classic game.

Psionics were just broken. I played a psionic character once and realized why the DM thought it was broken. Couldn't they have added some kind of metacap? My character, at 1st-level, with an M.E. of 14 (reasonable stat, equivalent to Wisdom 14... heck, that's actually pretty low for a psychic) was capable of instantly killing any PC in the party, twice, due to hit point damage (it wasn't save or die).

Starting psion (mind mage) with ME 14 would have a max of 34 ISP (if he rolled a 20 for his starting ISP on the d20 - average would be 25 ISP). And there isn't a single power on the level 1 list that deals damage. The first power that deals damage is a level 3 psionic power (mental bolt of force) which does a flat 2d6 damage for 12 ISP.

Again, this all may be different in the latest edition, but if anything psionics were uber gimpy in the original game.

The skills system was wimpy. Getting to the 50% mark took a lot of levels; even when taking secondary skills that might boost a primary skill by 20%, you still saw low numbers (eg below 50%).

This was basically no different than the D&D game their were modeled after. Look at thief skills in OD&D and you see a game based on mediocrity.

The average Secondary Skill (knowledges, play instrument) hits 50% around level 5.
The average "primary" skill (tracking, scale walls) hits 50% around level 7.

Except for "Scale Walls" this is quite comparable to a B/X thief, way better than a BECM thief, and roughly equivalent to an OD&D (Greyhawk supplement) thief.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Ugh. I hadn't realized they had brought over the physical skills from TMNT / Rifts / etc to Palladium in the second edition of the game. In the original and revised editions, there were no skills that provided stat bonuses. (No Boxing, Running, Acrobatics, etc).

I didn't know which edition it was that I was playing. Sounds like the older edition you were playing was ... sane. Wouldn't it be easier to find the newer version though? Maybe my group was even more atypical than most, but I would have thought that most people currently commenting on Palladium would be dealing with the newer rules.

Elves get 4D6 for PP and 5D6 for PB

And a penalty to M.A. that actually made sense. (Beautiful jerks were the elves!)

But, as usual for games of that era, this was supposed to be controlled through role playing - trolls are not welcome in towns, and the wolfen are the traditional enemies of all of the human-like races, so no one likes them at all.

Between die-rolled stats (a problem with 2e too, though) and the game writers not knowing the particulars of each group, I don't think that was a good idea. I personally have no problem playing a "disadvantaged" species without any kind of metagame benefit, as the penalties my character is taking only rarely has any impact on game balance; instead, they have an impact on RPing and maybe plot development. But then we may just have different philosophies.

 

[HellHound]

I didn't know which edition it was that I was playing. Sounds like the older edition you were playing was ... sane. Wouldn't it be easier to find the newer version though? Maybe my group was even more atypical than most, but I would have thought that most people currently commenting on Palladium would be dealing with the newer rules.

Unfortunately I guess that's a good point. My personal experience was that no one except RIFTS players had picked up the 1997 edition, and everyone I know who has the Palladium RPG has the good old 1983 edition. I just figured most people were still playing the classic, just like how most people playing CyberPunk play CyberPunk 2020 instead of CyberPunk3.

The 1983 edition was a very smooth game that was superior to the D&D of the era in a lot of ways. I personally enjoyed the way attacks that rolled high enough to hit but not high enough to defeat the defenders armour value did their damage to the armour instead of the defender. Same thing with parrying with a shield.

And the skill system was roughly equivalent in power, but applied to all classes instead of just Thieves.

And of course, the sample adventure had the Doubling Sword of Chaos in it. Ebony short sword that deals damage using a doubling cube.

- - -

I believe I actually have a copy of the new edition in the box of RIFTS stuff I had dropped off by a friend a few months ago. I'll dig through it and give a more "up to date" opinion after today's CyberPunk 2020 game.

 

[HellHound]

Ohhhhhkay....

Second edition is way off the tracks. Starting mind mage can indeed have 200 power points, and a power that deals 1d6 damage / 6 power points spent.

With an average character having 14 or so hit points and about 20-30 SDC (depending on skill choices). So a 72 power attack should kill the average character. No save (just like lava).

 

[jdrakeh]

For the sake of clarity, I'd like to say that I also play the 1983 version of the Palladium RPG. My group at the time gave the second edition a spin in 1997 (IIRC) and didn't much care for it, so we stuck with the first edition. Ultimax Deathstone and all

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I think the whole idea of "progression" and "advances" in RPGs rings pretty hollow. Skill based or classless/levelless systems aren't more advanced than class/level systems. Dice pools aren't inherently more sophisticated than linear dice progressions. And a d20 sure isn't more mature than a d100 when they do exactly te same thing. Some evidence might suggest that really "Forge"-y games might qualify as "progress", but if you dig I am sure you can find RPGs from 1980 that embraced elements of GNS, etc...

It's not about any particular mechanic, it's about the USE of mechanics. I've played using a great many systems and I've never seen any particular mechanic of the game as more or less progressive. It's the integration and interaction of the mechanics within the game that I'm talking about, and there twenty years has seen a lot of improvement. And though the original version was better the post 97 version introduced many of the mechanical problems of RIFTS to PFRPG.

 

[Treebore]

1983 Paladium Fantasy here as well. The revised was almost as messed up as RIFTS itself, due to trying to make the two "compatible".

 

[Reynard]

1983 Paladium Fantasy here as well. The revised was almost as messed up as RIFTS itself, due to trying to make the two "compatible".

I am glad I specifically went and purchased the 1st Edition, Revised, because I wanted the "pure" version and a short perusal of Palladium's forums indicated this was the edition to get. I have Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition and I am am guessing that a lot of the headscrather mechanics in that game must be the "RIFTS" influence that also extend over to PFRPG2?

Also of note: One of the things that might have colored my view of Palladium Fantasy fan vs D&D fan is the little forum tussle that erupted early in 3E's life where KS basically said that he was doing "d20" before d20. At the time, not being familiar with any Palladium game aside from HU, I kind of scoffed and said to myself, "Ha! It uses percentile skills! How's that d20?"

Looking of Palladium fantasy, though, I can see a lot of similarities to D&D 3E, despite 15 or so years of separation:

Class skills? Check.
"Free" multiclassing? Check.
No race/class/level limits? Very nearly.
Humanoid type monsters "advanced" by class levels? Check.

I am not suggesting that any of those things are damning, or that KS was "right" -- I just find it interesting that a lot of the "advances" that people found integral and "fresh" in 3E were long present in what's often called (rightly) an AD&D clone. Of course, lots of other games' designs seem to have had an influence on 3E -- ranging from Earthdawn to Rolemaster -- and that I think is a feature of good game design.