Palladium?

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'm a person who buys (or at least, used to buy) a lot of Palladium product.

I loved the concepts, hated the mechanics. And, over the years, I've come to hate the amount of cut & paste material, the lack of meaningful revision/correction, etc. in the game.

A liberal dose of handwavium allowed me to run a few RIFTS/Heroes Unlimited campaigns that were well received, but now I just buy what I buy as source material for other games.

In other words, you could basically consider me a customer who was driven away.

So, Kevin, if you or any of your close buds are reading this: FIX YOUR GAME!
 

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erc1971

Explorer
Palladium is not completely out of the woods yet, but they are doing quite well.

They sold over 1600 of the $50 "save Palladium" art prints. People donated thousands, others bought and bought books. They raised over $100K in the first 5 days per a status report Kevin posted on the Palladium boards.

I attended thier open house on may 6th - it was basically a convention right in thier HQ building. Yes - I got to play in a Palladium game that Kevin ran upstairs in his personal lounge - awesome! The first half hour I was there, I watched someone walk in and drop over $4000 (yes, it was you Subjugator), they made a ton of money there also.

They have raised quite a bit of money - Kevin himself said they have started sending money to pay off those outstanding bills from the embezzlement. I do know there was alot of speculation on this board that Kevin was just making this up to save himself from bad decisions - well, the court documents did come out - someone Kevin knew for 24 years and had hired 14 years ago was stealing from Palladium. So, stop the rumor spreading please.

While Kevin may be having Ramen for dinner for some time to come - it looks like they are going to pull through this - I know if they posted saying they were still a little short, I would be buying a couple extra books to help put them over the hump. I also suspect that when things return to normal, Kevin will find they will be doing better than in the past, since they will no longer have someone stealing all thier product.

Can I ask people to stop bashing Palladium and Kevin. If you don't care for the rules and don't play the games, fine. But, slamming the guy as the anti-christ who eats kittens and puppies for breakfast is a bit much. I can tell you from personal experience, Kevin is a hell of a guy, and does everything possible for fans of Palladium. (I have to defend palladium on the enworld boards, and defend D&D on the palladium boards, I am a bad guy no matter where I go, lol)

Eric
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I do know there was alot of speculation on this board that Kevin was just making this up to save himself from bad decisions - well, the court documents did come out - someone Kevin knew for 24 years and had hired 14 years ago was stealing from Palladium.

What people speculate about is the amount of the embezzlement and how it got so bad considering it was alleged that the crime took place over a course of several years, not whether the whole thing was a hoax.

Kevin is a hell of a guy, and does everything possible for fans of Palladium.

Hell of a guy he may be, but he does NOT do everything possible for fans of Palladium. In a still missing pair of threads on this board, some of the people who used to write product for him pointed out that he no longer playtests product (as well as other insights as to his bad business practices that impact on game quality).

IM(not so)HO, a company with serious flaws that directly impact game quality is doing its customers a disservice.

And in my own personal experience, I have noticed a lack of needed corrections- problems unchanged in RIFTS since the first editions- and this lack of revision is another serious flaw.

Don't get me wrong- there is some excellent stuff in the Palladium stable- but it could have been legendary if Kevin had gotten his act together.
 

kenobi65

First Post
erc1971 said:
I do know there was alot of speculation on this board that Kevin was just making this up to save himself from bad decisions - well, the court documents did come out - someone Kevin knew for 24 years and had hired 14 years ago was stealing from Palladium. So, stop the rumor spreading please.

Having read multiple threads on this topic here on EN World...

There were fairly few comments suggesting that "Kevin was just making this up". What was being questioned was the size of the loss (Kevin says the losses were in the six to seven figures, then court documents suggest it was far less), and the nature of the losses (lumping what were fundamentally personal memorabilia along with merchandise and book art).
 

erc1971

Explorer
kenobi65 said:
Having read multiple threads on this topic here on EN World...

There were fairly few comments suggesting that "Kevin was just making this up". What was being questioned was the size of the loss (Kevin says the losses were in the six to seven figures, then court documents suggest it was far less), and the nature of the losses (lumping what were fundamentally personal memorabilia along with merchandise and book art).

One of things I think contributed to the amount of the loss was the trust Kevin had in this man - he was a good friend for a quarter of a century. Most people would trust a friend of this many years with anything and everything. They probably didn't hold any audits, etc on his work. Steve (the embezzler) was the Sales Manager for Palladium - a sales manager can easily hide how much is sold and slide the profits to himself, while reporting the missing books as destroyed due to damage, which furthers the loss to the company. He was in the position to manipulate things.

This, coupled with the fact that some things stolen were 1 of a kind, collectable, etc. - it is impossible to get a completely accurate value on what was stolen. Steve's sentence did require him to pay back $50K to Palladium and he received 1 year probation. Yeah, that is very lenient, but Kevin had posted that they couldn't afford insane lawyer costs to really go after him.
 

Voadam

Legend
erc1971 said:
Palladium is not completely out of the woods yet, but they are doing quite well.

I attended thier open house on may 6th - it was basically a convention right in thier HQ building. Yes - I got to play in a Palladium game that Kevin ran upstairs in his personal lounge - awesome!

Eric

If you see him again do me a favor and ask him to release products as pdfs such as through www.dtrpg.com or www.rpgnow.com or www.e23.com or www.paizo.com I would be interested in buying some in that format.
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
Catavarie said:
The problem, as I see it, with converting Palladium system to d20 system is that the two systems are fundimentally different, Palladium is more skill centric while d20 is Attribute centric...now that being said let me explain my thinking:

Palladium uses the attributes to bolster skill scores which most checks are against: you want to break dow a door? well whats you Door Break Skill? Roll the dice

D20 is more about the attributes, skills and feats are bolstered by the attributes and yet we seem to keep going back to what is the attribute to determine a vast number of rolls made
I didn't realize that Door-Breaking is an acquired skill. ;) So, is there a Door-Breaking course I could sign up at my community college, or do I have to enroll in a Door-Breaking University?

:p

I don't know if you're referring to d20 or AD&D, with its Nonweapon Proficiency System is heavily dependent on one's attribute. At least the d20 Skill System downplay that, so that even the most clumsiest of character (i.e., low Dex score and modifier) can be the most accomplished horse rider if he put his mind -- that is, skill points -- toward the Ride skill.
 

erc1971

Explorer
Dannyalcatraz said:
Hell of a guy he may be, but he does NOT do everything possible for fans of Palladium. In a still missing pair of threads on this board, some of the people who used to write product for him pointed out that he no longer playtests product (as well as other insights as to his bad business practices that impact on game quality).

IM(not so)HO, a company with serious flaws that directly impact game quality is doing its customers a disservice.

And in my own personal experience, I have noticed a lack of needed corrections- problems unchanged in RIFTS since the first editions- and this lack of revision is another serious flaw.

Don't get me wrong- there is some excellent stuff in the Palladium stable- but it could have been legendary if Kevin had gotten his act together.

No game can please everybody. I can't stand the Shadowrun rules, and avoid that game like the plague. It doesn't mean the game sucks - the rules just don't appeal to me. If someone said the company that made this game was in danger, I wouldn't start dogging it, I would wish them well and hope they got through it, as people do enjoy the game - they are doing something right. Kevin is also obviously doing something right, as he does have a rather large fan base that has followed him over 2 and a half decades - almost as long as D&D.

Playtesting: The nature of the Palladium rules does allow this to be skipped in certain circumstances. For the *most* part OCC's and RCC's are much less complex than D&D or other games. A couple stat bonuses or skill's aren't going to throw a game out of whack. Not to mention the guy has been working with these rules for 25+ years, he would know what works by this point. IMHO, D&D has worse playtesting problems than Palladium - Truenamer, Pun-pun, Hulking Hurler doing over a million damage, 217 AC, 628 spells cast in 1 round, etc, etc. Yet, D&D is still a very fun game, and I am currently playing it in my current group.

They just did a revision of Rifts last year. Now, not as major as 2nd edition D&D to 3.x - but it did help in alot of areas with clarifications, cleaning up and streamlining a few areas, and some nicer combat rules (though I will admit I wish they did rules for battlemap use, battlemaps do not work well with the Palladium System)

Kevin does bust his rear to do everything he can for his fans. Look at the price of a Palladium book compared to other books on the market now adays. EVERY YEAR he sells Christmas Grab bags where you can get things for 60-70% off! Kevin personally takes the time to post on the Palladium forums and give updates, etc (this is bigger than it seems, as 2 years ago I asked Kevin how many hours a week he put in, and his response was 100-120!). Giving out autographs...I have about 30 autographs from the man. After he had over 1000 sales of the "save Palladium" art print, he decided he was going to personally write a thank you note with each one - he already had the money, this was just him showing his true appreciation to his fans.

What I am seeing, is people just bashing the rules/Kevin because they personally don't mesh well with the rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, but there is no reason to start slamming the man. Find what works for you, if it is not Palladium games, no need to slander Kevin and his life's work.
 

erc1971

Explorer
Voadam said:
If you see him again do me a favor and ask him to release products as pdfs such as through www.dtrpg.com or www.rpgnow.com or www.e23.com or www.paizo.com I would be interested in buying some in that format.

I sat in on a discussion panel with Kevin a few years back - he is opposed to PDF's big time. Very worried losing alot of sales to PDF's floating around the internet. His fears are well founded - hop onto a P2P network - any D&D book older than 3 months is out there, Palladium books are harder to find. Copy protection schemes are broken right away, then the PDF is sent out - other people, break the binding on books and scan in the entire thing, but this is much rarer, as you have to destroy the book you bought.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
mcrow said:
It's always funny how people who have never met KS and form their opinion of him based on what other say on forums. :confused:

It's always funny how people assume that this is the case.

I know a few people that have met/worked with Kevin

Me too.

and they all said he is very nice guy.

I only know of one person who worked with Kevin that speaks kindly of the man.
 

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