Pang of nostalgia for "light" stat blocks

[ThirdWizard]

Short stat blocks are fine in one's personal game. If I were actually buying an adventure, though, I would expect the full stat block. "Fighter4" just ain't going to cut it with me if I put cash on the table. No way, no how.

I also find it ironic how pro-short stat people have the imagination to "create" these NPCs on the fly while playing them but are easily distracted by 15 lines of stats. When I prepare for a session, I write out everything on a separate piece of paper and pull it out when necessary. I enjoy knowing that NPC #20339 is a grapple guy (who I've statted out as such), or that NPC #20341 has these 12 spells prepared. Or even that NPC #20390 uses Weapon Finnesse so that if a PC uses bestow curse to lower his Str, he won't suffer an attack penalty.

More options are avilable in 3.X. That means that the game is going to be more complicated, and you're going to need more information. It's just a natural thing that happens when you give the players more options. I like it, and I couldn't go back to what is now an insufficient line of text for my NPCs.

 

[Wil]

I also find it ironic how pro-short stat people have the imagination to "create" these NPCs on the fly while playing them but are easily distracted by 15 lines of stats. When I prepare for a session, I write out everything on a separate piece of paper and pull it out when necessary. I enjoy knowing that NPC #20339 is a grapple guy (who I've statted out as such), or that NPC #20341 has these 12 spells prepared. Or even that NPC #20390 uses Weapon Finnesse so that if a PC uses bestow curse to lower his Str, he won't suffer an attack penalty.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not distracted by 15 lines of stats - I don't need 15 lines of stats. You might and that's cool, but I don't

More options are avilable in 3.X. That means that the game is going to be more complicated, and you're going to need more information. It's just a natural thing that happens when you give the players more options. I like it, and I couldn't go back to what is now an insufficient line of text for my NPCs.

And there's the rub - I don't play any flavor of D&D, so it's irrelevant to me.

 

[Akrasia]

... I am particularly non-grognardly/nostalgic on this issue. I don't pine for the days when all monsters could be boiled down to a bag of hit points, a THAC0, and a damage dice. ...

?? I don't recall most monsters being like this at all. (Well, aside from the low-level critters like kobolds, goblins, etc. -- though that's hardly different in 3e.)

 

[ThirdWizard]

No, you misunderstand. I'm not distracted by 15 lines of stats - I don't need 15 lines of stats. You might and that's cool, but I don't

I don't need 15 lines of stats. I also don't need feats, skills, hit points, ability scores, magic, equipment, or alignment. But, I prefer them. I think people are confusing preferance with ability to a degree. Just because someone can run with one line descriptors for their NPCs doesn't mean they want to. Just because I could run an adventure with a vague description of some monster somewhere nearby doing something bad doesn't mean I want that, and it certainly doesn't mean I would pay for that.

And there's the rub - I don't play any flavor of D&D, so it's irrelevant to me.

Now you're confusing me. You're saying you don't need a 15 line stat block in D&D, but you don't play D&D?

EDIT:

Here's a pretty average stat block from the 2E adventure Dead Gods

[sblock]
<Name> (khaasta chieftan): AC 2 (bronze plate); MV 9, HD
6+6; hp 43; THAC0 15; #AT 2; Dmg 1d6/1d10+3 (bite/ two-
handed sword + Str bonus); SZ: M (7' tall); ML elite (14); Int
very (12); AL CN; XP 650.
Special Equipment: thief of charms (rod drains beauty
from targets; see Chapter 1 for details; 10 charges left); silver
Arcadian dovehawk feather (gate key).
Notes: When mounted on giant lizard, <Name> gains +1 to
hit foes on foot but loses ability to attack foes with bite.
[/sblock]

In fact, I didn't see a stat block less than six lines for Chapter 1. (Note that the one line Planescape descriptors are specifically meant for non-combatants). Come to think of it, I don't remember ever seeing a 2E one line stat descriptor for combatants... Seems to have been a gradual thing. As the game slowly gets more complicated, the stat blocks increase in size. Makes sense to me.

 

[demiurge1138]

I am probably going to be one of this thread's few defenders of bulky stat-blocks. I like them, and I have no problem navigating them in the middle of a combat. Of course, I design my own monsters a lot, so I've had a lot of hands-on experience with them, which applies to the normal NPCs.

It could be worse. Back when I was still young and foolish, I made a character sheet for every NPC.

Demiurge out.

 

[Starman]

That doesn't work for me, alas. I'm running D20 Modern, where skills just seem much more important, even to mooks. It's the lack of roles, really. In DnD, you know fighters can't Snese Motive or Spot, so you don't bother giving them any Sense Motive or Spot. In Modern, how do you know the guy standing near the door with the lead pipe wrapped in newspaper doesn't have ranks in Sense Motive or Spot? He certainly could through Tough levels (Spot only) or Dedicated levels (didn't expect that one?) or his Occupation... Maybe he's a competent doorman instead of "Fighter Build CDE".

Then pick three or four skills he does have that are important to his character and note those. If he needs to make any other skill check for whatever reason just add his ability modifier.

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm not distracted by 15 lines of stats - I don't need 15 lines of stats.

Because it's worth repeating. Not everybody needs or wants 15 lines of mechanical terms to define an NPC. Some people do. Some people still use good, old-fashioned, description to define NPCs, using only mechanics that are prone to come up in play, and this is enough for them. For some people description and a handful of mechanical defintion is not enough, rather they need to cover all angles of an NPC mechanically. This doesn't make either group of people 'right' or 'wrong', merely different.

As for D&D 3x providing more options to players than previous editions - I disagree. There isn't a single thing in D&D 3x that I wasn't able to do in previous editions of the game. What is different and what D&D 3x does do is provide more rules [to govern actions] - which isn't the same thing at all as providing more options. Rules =/= options. Never have

 

[Wil]

Now you're confusing me. You're saying you don't need a 15 line stat block in D&D, but you don't play D&D?

While the OP may have been referring to D&D, D&D doesn't own a monopoly on stat blocks. For example, Exalted's characters are every bit as complex (if not more so) than a D&D character...and I still don't need 15 lines of stats for an Exalted character. I agree with you though - a lot of people are confusing the need for a complete stat block vs. the possibility of having one. I just wanted to make it clear that my lack of need for stat blocks has nothing to do with it interrupting the flow of the adventure text or anything like that, and has more to do with the fact that I just wing things anyway.

EDIT:

Here's a pretty average stat block from the 2E adventure Dead Gods

[sblock]
<Name> (khaasta chieftan): AC 2 (bronze plate); MV 9, HD
6+6; hp 43; THAC0 15; #AT 2; Dmg 1d6/1d10+3 (bite/ two-
handed sword + Str bonus); SZ: M (7' tall); ML elite (14); Int
very (12); AL CN; XP 650.
Special Equipment: thief of charms (rod drains beauty
from targets; see Chapter 1 for details; 10 charges left); silver
Arcadian dovehawk feather (gate key).
Notes: When mounted on giant lizard, <Name> gains +1 to
hit foes on foot but loses ability to attack foes with bite.
[/sblock]

See, that's actually not that bad...it's definitely readable and better than a few that I've seen attempted for other games. I think that one of the things people should consider when writing a stat block (or determining what is going to go into it) is if it's readable without having a key.

 

[ZombieButch]

The tiny NPC stat block doesn't lead to a memorable character type or a challenge.

A stat block is a map. A map is not the territory.

Which is to say, it takes more than a stat block - large or small - to create a memorable character or challenge. But there's nothing wrong with group A wanting a interactive GPS map and group B being satisfied with a couple of "turn left at the old Wilkins barn at the end of the holler" directions scribbled on a napkin. Either way, it's just a means to get from one place to another.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

's O.K. It's bound to happen sometime.

Not sure I understand your first statement. As for the second, I've NEVER seen a fighter boost his wisdom - that's more folly in my opinion than taking a single feat to get the equivalent to a +4 WIS bonus. Same with spot and listen - I'd rather have a fighter with a feat or two spent and 4 points higher strength (or +4 STR from items) instead of wasting the money and attributes in higher WIS. He has no other use for it than saves and spot/listen.

That would be the first level Wisdom boost.

And I would consider his saves important.

I'd have to disagree; that fighter WILL have improved trip, or disarm, or improved toughness, or whatever he needs to make the fight interesting. Or, if he some crap-guard, he's going to go down in 2 rounds instead of the 3 had I wasted 20 minutes statting out every single feat. The higher the level, the higher those 'arbitrary' bonuses are going to be, because the fully statted NPC is going to have higher bonuses too, commensurate with the half-statted NPC.

I was referring to the nearly empty stat block above, which had no feats.

..assuming the DM can find the stats again amidst the piles of paperwork, and assuming the PCs don't cop wise to the fact that the NPC guard is the exact same as the previous five guards they met. Fully statting has it's drawbacks, and increased paperwork is one of them.

This literally does not happen to me. This is why I keep them in cards in two boxes. They're organized by CR, but really, you could organize them however you wanted. I found cards convenient, portable, and not messy.

As for identical cards, its pretty easy to avoid that problem. Once you've got one guard down, any other guards are likely to be pretty similar if they're following the same style. (I use two types I designed myself and two or three more I found in different sources. Some guards are pretty smart and have lots of ranks in Sense Motive. Others are just bags of hit points with Intimidate and Spot. Then there's the security leader, but he's a hero, so maybe that's not fair )

Or they could be a "style" of guard. (The Lord of Blade's guards might be identical to each other, but are very different from the Emerald Claw elite guard.) These could be used multiple times, with adjustments for levels as well.

That's why you don't hire fighters, you hire fighter/rogues, or fighters (with the educated feat) who were training in Delhall's security school of Waterdeep. (took me 5 sec. to write (educ. & list/spot +7 on his sheet) - he just can't climb or jump worth a darn, and his other skill is whatever I need next.)

Not seeing Educated in core rules

If you're doing fighter/rogues, their skills are probably important. Plus, their fighting style is probably different, and might not be the one you're looking for.

I wouldn't want to just ignore skills like Jump. What if they have to chase PCs over rooftops? It does happen.

If he's there to be bluffed, or fought, or sneaked past, his other skills are meaningless.

Which frequently leads to maxed out skills, even if that isn't realistic. Like, you know, missing ranks in Jump or Hide. (Yes, there's no reason you can't have guards jump out of the bushes, surprising the PCs or even attacking them from two directions. Isn't that what the Secret Service does, have guards hiding around or in plain clothes in crowds?)

If he's there to befriend the PC's, and repeatedly show up in their lives, then he needs more stats. I can't see spending half an hour to stat up a generic NPC only to have him destroyed, nor to spend a long time statting up reams of NPC's just so I can be prepared for every eventuality, and get lost in the paperwork. (Believe me, I've tried both and they suck.) The danger of a DM to get lost in his bookeeping and being distracted from keeping the story running smoothly is too great a risk for me.

Then pick three or four skills he does have that are important to his character and note those. If he needs to make any other skill check for whatever reason just add his ability modifier.

This is why I mentioned a shorter stat block - something like Ronald's block, which has detail, instead of +4/+4/+1, with no skills, feats or even "type" personality. I'm simply not interested in "fighter clones" - not when you can have twenty different types of mooks for a hundred different encounters.