Paragon Path: Champion of the Colossus Blade

[DanChops]

Woo-hoo! My first double post.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

DanChops
His words are wise
His face is beard

 

[comrade raoul]

This seems like an awfully, er, compensatory paragon path--even moreso than is usual for the kind of things we find ourselves designing from time to time. But that's a flavor concern. More substantively:

Class features: Look great, all around. I really like the idea of the big weapon guy's weapon being SO big he can even get behind old Sasha or Vera or whatever when things get hectic. As far as Slow and Steady goes, I'd just use Constitution--it's simpler and cleaner that way, and every heavy weapons guy should want Con anyhow.

Scything assault: Auto-dazing in a burst as an encounter power is broken at any level. The daze effect should only occur on a hit. Other than that, it's fine.

Backlash parry: If it's going to protect you from the attack, it should be an immediate interrupt, not a reaction--the defense bonus isn't going to help you after the attack already occurs! More substantively, why is the heavy-weapon guy fast, exactly? It looks awfully good--compare it to the kensei's parry. This one has a good chance of totally negating a hit and it can do a lot of extra damage on the side. I'd drop the parry entirely to be honest--I don't really see the point, other than to make the guy all that much more awesome. Why not emphasize the slow-and-steady aspect of the class and simulate 3e-style full attacks? Try this:

Wind-Up
Colossus Blade Utility 12
You slowly step forward, like a coiled spring, before you cut loose.
Encounter ♦ Martial
Move Action -- Personal
Effect: Shift one square. Until the end of your current turn, you gain a +1 bonus to your next melee attack roll; if it hits, you deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier.

Force of Spirit: I like the ideas behind the power, but I have a hard time seeing how this isn't totally broken. The fighter is spending healing surges--making him worse at taking damage, and therefore worse at helping the party and doing his job--to do sick amounts of damage. No power in the game--except maybe for a full five-hit Blade Cascade or Assassin's Point with a sneak attack--does as much damage as extra damage equal to half your total hitpoints.

I'd follow the Blood Mage here and let the fighter just take damage, rather than spend healing surges. This makes the power riskier but brings out pretty vividly what the fighter is putting into it. I'd also keep things sane by modelling the massive damage just by lots of weapon damage--8[W] would be pretty generous. The nice thing about that is that it would let the character emphasize, if only once a day, just what big weapon dice can add up to. Maybe something like:

Force of Spirit
Colossus Blade Attack 20
Through sheer force of will, you empower your weapon to deal a massive amount of damage with your next attack.
Daily ♦ Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action -- Melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 8[W] + Strength modifier + Constitution modifier damage.
Effect: You take 4d10 points of damage.

 

[DanChops]

Scything assault: Auto-dazing in a burst as an encounter power is broken at any level. The daze effect should only occur on a hit. Other than that, it's fine.

Good catch. That's what I was thinking - I just need to get my fingers to type what my brain is telling it to.

Force of Spirit: I like the ideas behind the power, but I have a hard time seeing how this isn't totally broken. The fighter is spending healing surges--making him worse at taking damage, and therefore worse at helping the party and doing his job--to do sick amounts of damage. No power in the game--except maybe for a full five-hit Blade Cascade or Assassin's Point with a sneak attack--does as much damage as extra damage equal to half your total hitpoints.

Isn't a healing surge equal to 1/4 of your total hit points, rather than 1/2? Or am I way off base here. If you're right, and it's 1/2, then you're absolutely right - that's way too much damage. However, if it's 1/4 then for your typical 20th level fighter that's about 37 hit points or so - or roughly 4[W] if you're using a Large Maul. Granted, that's a lot, but I don't see it as a game-breaking amount. Of course, play testing could (and probably would) show me wrong.

As for your thematic concerns with the ability, I can't speak too authoritatively on those since I'm not the original author. However, I kind of look at this class a emphasizing the striker-ish nature of the Fighter. In that light, it's not too difficult for me to swallow a once-a-day sacrifice of a healing surge to gain a boost to damage. That's just me though.

I'd follow the Blood Mage here and let the fighter just take damage, rather than spend healing surges. This makes the power riskier but brings out pretty vividly what the fighter is putting into it. I'd also keep things sane by modelling the massive damage just by lots of weapon damage--8[W] would be pretty generous. The nice thing about that is that it would let the character emphasize, if only once a day, just what big weapon dice can add up to. Maybe something like:

Force of Spirit
Colossus Blade Attack 20
Through sheer force of will, you empower your weapon to deal a massive amount of damage with your next attack.
Daily ♦ Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action -- Melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 8[W] + Strength modifier + Constitution modifier damage.
Effect: You take 4d10 points of damage.

That would certainly work, and I think it all probably balances out to about the same result (although thematically I still think this ability needs a push effect - maybe 7[w] or even 6[w] to push a square or two instead of 8[w].) However, flavor wise this version just isn't doin' it, not for me anyway.

I see Force of Spirit being about transferring some of your internal focus and energy into squeezing every last bit of punishment you can eek out on your enemy. Now, with 4e's explicit description of hp as the sum of a whole range of things in addition to actual physical damage, I suppose that your version captures that just about as well as loosing a few healing surges would. However, for some reason I can't express, direct damage just doesn't quite strike me as being as evocative of this concept as expending a few healing surges would be. I mean, I get it on an intellectual level, but my gut just isn't going along with it.

 

[DanChops]

DanChops
His words are wise
His face is beard

I've been trying all day to think of an appropriately witty response. No luch though. Maybe add a third line:
But his comments are not wit.

 

[riplox]

The unconditional dazed condition change makes a lot of sense. Dunno why I had it like that in the first place. As for the Force of Spirit ability, I think it needs to stay with sacrificing healing surges (2 surges for the ability). The original class did deal damage to him when he used it, but only because that was really the only way to express the transference of life force into the weapon via rules. However, with 4E, we have the surges which work much better flavor-wise and allow for a damage output with lower variation between the extremes. Also as a side note, in the DMG they have a section on environmental effects which, if you fail the DC, you're drained of a healing surge.

On the subject of healing surges, DanChops, yes the HSV is equal to 1/4 your HP.

So really, the only question is: Do we raise the FoS damage to 4[w] or not?

EDIT: Oh and with the Backlash Parry ability, I'm not sure Constitution should really be the only ability in that skill. I want to try and stay away from a really MAD class. So how should I express the bonus?

 

[DanChops]

So really, the only question is: Do we raise the FoS damage to 4[w] or not?

Well, let's compare FoS to the other four Fighter PP 20th level exploits.

Still operating under the assumption that our typical 20th level fighter's healing surge value is 37, that he's wielding an oversized Maul (9 average damage per [W]), 23 Strength (+6), and a +4 enhancement on his weapon. That would make FoS damage average 83 if it does 4[W], 74 if it does 3[W], and 65 if it does 2[W].

In contrast, with Indomitable Strength, an Iron Vanguard will be doing an average of 42 damage, plus pushing the target 1 square and making him dazed.

With Weaponsoul Dance, a Kensei will be doing 34 damage to one target, 26 damage to the next target (assuming he hits the first), and 18 damage to a final target (assuming he hits the first two.) In addition, all three targets will be prone and immobilized until the end of the Kensei's next turn, and the Kensei got to shift a total of 10 squares during his standard action.

A Pit Fighter using Lion of Battle will do 42 damage to one target (with a possible 26 extra damage if the target is bloodied, bringing the total to 68, since you'd probably never use that power against a non-bloodied target.) He also gets to potentially cause every enemy within 5 squares to move its speed away from him.

Finally, a Swordmaster using Crescendo Sword will do 21 damage against enemies in a burst 1 area if he's using a bastard sword, 23 if he's using a greatsword. In addition, he gets to recharge either a daily or an encounter power he's already used.

So, if FoS does 3[W] or 4[W] it will do significantly more damage than any of the other comparable powers. However, they all have an ancilliary effect that makes them more valuable, and, most importantly, none of them come with an associated cost. I'm honestly not sure how to balance all that out. How much extra damage is balanced by the 2 healing surge cost? How much damage is a special status effect worth?

My feeling is that FoS could either do 4[W] plus HS damage, and be fine there, or do 3[W] plus HS plus push 2 squares or something and fine there as well.

 

[riplox]

I like the sound of the second one, but seeing the math done makes me think I should make it 2[W] + Str + HS and push 2 and knockdown. I'm not really sure. Grr...Maybe I should just make it your second suggestion and be done with it.

 

[DanChops]

I like the sound of the second one, but seeing the math done makes me think I should make it 2[W] + Str + HS and push 2 and knockdown. I'm not really sure. Grr...Maybe I should just make it your second suggestion and be done with it.

One of the difficulties I'm having in trying to evaluate the balanced nature of this power is that the four comparison powers seem poorly balanced among themselves. In particular, the Iron Vanguard's Indominitable Strength seems significantly weaker than the other three. The other three, however, seem to be at least on the same level of usefulness, since they all do roughly the same level of damage, and their rider effects seem roughly comparable.

So, if we leave Indominitable Strength out of the analysis for a minute, what do we get? Well, I think that 2[W] + Str + HS and push 2 and knockdown would be roughly equal with the damage and effect output of the other three comparison powers, if slightly weaker. So, if FoS didn't cost 2 HS to use, then that would probably be balanced. Of course, it does cost 2 HS, so we need to increase the efficacy of the power to compensate for the cost.

The question then becomes, how much is the cost of 2 HS worth? 1[W]? 2[W]? Some extra squares added to the push? Adding dazed to the list of effects on a hit? Adding immobile? Doing something as an effect, not tied to the hit? I'm really not sure, but here are a few thoughts:

Hit: 2[W] + Str + HS
Effect: Push the target two squares and knock the target prone.

Hit: 3[W] + Str + HS, push the target two squares, knock the target prone, and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Hit: 3[W] + Str + HS, push the target four (or maybe Con mod?) squares, knock the target prone

Hit: 4[W] + Str + HS, push the target two squares, target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Or something like that.

 

[riplox]

Added a new Paragon Path - Champion of the Titan's Maul. See original post.