Paragon Path Multiclassing

[keterys]

Of all the things leaked, I think what you get for a paragon path multiclass may have surprised me the most...

You basically trade:

11th:
One of your at-will powers
A paragon path feature (probably a moderate benefit)
An action point trigger special
A level 11 encounter power

for an at-will and a level 7 encounter power
* What?? *

12th:
A level 12 utility
for a level 10 utility
* Eh, close enough *

16th:
A moderately beneficial paragon path feature
for... nothing... at all.
* Argh! *

20th:
A level 20 paragon daily
for a level 19 multiclass daily
* Close enough *

It just feels like a rip off, especially after 4 feats spent on the multiclassing itself.

So, how does this sound?

11th:
Extra At-Will
7th Encounter

12th:
10th Utility

16th:
Upgrade the 7th Encounter to 13th
Upgrade the 10th Utility to 14th

20th:
19th Daily

Break anything? Make it too good? It doesn't look too bad to me compared to a lot of the paragon paths...

 

[DonAdam]

The 11th level features are often quite good. The 16th level powers are more than a little so. In addition, having to take all four multiclass feats is a steep up front cost. In some cases each one may be worth it, but I figured there should be a payoff to such commitment. Here's my back of the envelope solution:

11th: Swap an at-will power (as-is, roughly equivalent to the extra action point use)

11th: Gain a class feature from the class (equivalent to shiny new PP ability)
-Cleric: Channel Divinity
-Fighter: Combat Superiority
-Paladin: Lay on Hands
-Ranger: Fighting Style
-Rogue: Rogue Tactics
-Warlock: Warlock's Curse
-Warlord: Commanding Presence
-Wizard: Cantrips

(Where possible, I selected these so that you could unlock the special benefits from a particular build associated with particular powers; I figure as of 11th level, you are really a member of your second class)

16th: Gain or improve a class feature (roughly equivalent to 16th level shinyness)
-Cleric: Full-blown Healing Word
-Fighter: Full-blown Combat Challenge
-Paladin: Full-blown Divine Challenge
-Ranger: Full-blown Hunter's Quarry
-Rogue: Full-blown Sneak Attack
-Warlock: Pact boon
-Warlord: Full-blown Inspiring Word
-Wizard: Implement Mastery

Edit: The one problem ability might be extra damage things stacking with each other, or wizards taking warlock's curse. (Of course, there's almost no reason for strikers not to take warrior of the wild now). I don't think it's too much of a problem with non-abusive players, and the 4 feat entry cost is still high since wizard powers are almost uniformly better. Not to mention having to be close to people to curse them.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, I thought about making a class feature based one, but I figured the class features weren't necessarily balanced against each other and there might be some scary combinations - ie, like stacking striker damage bonuses (rangers with rogue sneak attack, etc)

 

[mattdm]

It just feels like a rip off, especially after 4 feats spent on the multiclassing itself.

So, here's what I'm thinking, given the 4-feat price: if you have those feats by 11th level, you can opt to get the Paragon Multiclassing benefits for no additional price — you still get a paragon path as normal.

The three power-swap feats don't give you additional powers or even additional in-play flexibility, since they require an equivalent sacrifice. And same deal with the 11th-level paragon multiclassing benefit. Then, the three additional powers you finally do gain are restricted to lower-level ones.

I hate to make changes without playtesting, but I think this'll impact my player's choices as they go along the heroic tier, so I'm going to at least suggest it as we start our 4E game in a month or so.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Yeah, I thought about making a class feature based one, but I figured the class features weren't necessarily balanced against each other and there might be some scary combinations - ie, like stacking striker damage bonuses (rangers with rogue sneak attack, etc)

I think the best way to handle it, is to write up small class-flavoured paragon paths. I mean, they're small and compact and statting up a "Paragon Wizard" or a "Paragon Ranger" will probably work better than pure "take that of that class". Except for the at-will swapping - that's actually pretty cool.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Nifft]

When I'm done with Project RE•GEN, I'm going to totally re-write multiclassing. Specific feat progressions for each class, based on the awesomeness of the granted class features, and some Paragon paths too.

I completely agree that multi-classing, one of the the biggest awesomes in 3e, is the pooch that got screwed most by 4e. Very sad.

Cheers, -- N

 

[WhatGravitas]

When I'm done with Project RE•GEN, I'm going to totally re-write multiclassing. Specific feat progressions for each class, based on the awesomeness of the granted class features, and some Paragon paths too.

I completely agree that multi-classing, one of the the biggest awesomes in 3e, is the pooch that got screwed most by 4e. Very sad.

Cheers, -- N

As Nifft constantly produces nifty stuff, I'm eagerly waiting for it.

Cheers, LT.

 

[malcolm_n]

I like your idea as well LT. I think I'll work on some MC paths tomorrow at work and post them for perusal afterward.

That said, I'm an advocate for trying the game as is before actually making changes/additions. Although I do my share of writing new things, I don't plan to include them until we've got a healthy by the book game running.

 

[ShadowyFigure]

The 11th level features are often quite good. The 16th level powers are more than a little so. In addition, having to take all four multiclass feats is a steep up front cost. In some cases each one may be worth it, but I figured there should be a payoff to such commitment. Here's my back of the envelope solution:

11th: Swap an at-will power (as-is, roughly equivalent to the extra action point use)

11th: Gain a class feature from the class (equivalent to shiny new PP ability)
-Cleric: Channel Divinity
-Fighter: Combat Superiority
-Paladin: Lay on Hands
-Ranger: Fighting Style
-Rogue: Rogue Tactics
-Warlock: Warlock's Curse
-Warlord: Commanding Presence
-Wizard: Cantrips

(Where possible, I selected these so that you could unlock the special benefits from a particular build associated with particular powers; I figure as of 11th level, you are really a member of your second class)

16th: Gain or improve a class feature (roughly equivalent to 16th level shinyness)
-Cleric: Full-blown Healing Word
-Fighter: Full-blown Combat Challenge
-Paladin: Full-blown Divine Challenge
-Ranger: Full-blown Hunter's Quarry
-Rogue: Full-blown Sneak Attack
-Warlock: Pact boon
-Warlord: Full-blown Inspiring Word
-Wizard: Implement Mastery

Edit: The one problem ability might be extra damage things stacking with each other, or wizards taking warlock's curse. (Of course, there's almost no reason for strikers not to take warrior of the wild now). I don't think it's too much of a problem with non-abusive players, and the 4 feat entry cost is still high since wizard powers are almost uniformly better. Not to mention having to be close to people to curse them.

though multiclassing aint good. Do y7ou know what people could do with that. Warrlock / Ranger anyone

 

[Andur]

My thoughts:

1) Houserule the feat requirement to just the initial Multiclass feat.

2) Provide a bonus feat at each Paragon level to make up for the three "wasted" feats.

Either would satisfy my sense of "right" with the game.