D&D 5E Paralyzation rules tweak

Psikerlord#

Explorer
Great. So instead of criticizing me for writing down a ruling extending the PHB condition rules for paralyzing, we now know that you guys (not just Psikerlord, the ones who have made this a four-page thread about a semantic argument about the difference vel none between "creature auto-fails checks" and "DM never call for checks") should really be writing WotC to criticize them for writing any rules for paralyzation in the first place. In fact, you should probably be criticizing them for writing the PHB. Who needs rules when you've got a DM? Who needs dice either?
Ah I dunno, I was just saying how I do it. It makes sense to me to do it that way. But actually I agree the devs didnt need to specify how paraylzation works, etc - they could have left all the conditions for GMs to rule on. I mean paralzation, petrification, unconscious, incapacitated are all the same in my book - the guy cant defend himself and is in deep, deep trouble. If someone wants to kill him, and there is no-one nearby who can prevent it, it just happens.
 

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Satyrn

First Post
Great. So instead of criticizing me for writing down a ruling extending the PHB condition rules for paralyzing, we now know that you guys (not just Psikerlord, the ones who have made this a four-page thread about a semantic argument about the difference vel none between "creature auto-fails checks" and "DM never call for checks") should really be writing WotC to criticize them for writing any rules for paralyzation in the first place. In fact, you should probably be criticizing them for writing the PHB. Who needs rules when you've got a DM? Who needs dice either?

I have not been criticizing you. I have been offering you constructive criticism related to your proposed house rule.

I'm sorry that you didn't see it that way.

Now: You suggested that I was a control freak. I don't understand how you got that idea, but I do think that you meant it to be slightly insulting.
 

I though about that rule myself and I don´t really want it that easy to hit an unarmored character critically that easily.

So my rule will be: If you attack someone who is paralyzed in non-heavy armor, you may chose to try for a critical hit or not. Only if you don´t make a critical attempt you attack vs Dex=0. If you try to make a critical hit, you attack vs dex=10 (-5 penalty). The reasoning behind that is that it is not that easy to aim for the most vulnerable parts.
I rule stunned to just drop to dex=10. Down to 0 may be realistic, but advantage and dex=0 may be a bit too good.
 

FormerlyHemlock

Adventurer
I have not been criticizing you. I have been offering you constructive criticism related to your proposed house rule.

I'm sorry that you didn't see it that way.

Now: You suggested that I was a control freak. I don't understand how you got that idea, but I do think that you meant it to be slightly insulting.

I apologize. But I also don't appreciate your repeated attempts to derail the thread into a semantic argument. You and iserith haven't given any actual feedback at all on the ruling itself.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
You and iserith haven't given any actual feedback at all on the ruling itself.

I thought my feedback was implicit in my responses: There is no ability check or contest in the first place, therefore your ruling doesn't make a lot of sense - at least to me. It attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist in my view.
 


FormerlyHemlock

Adventurer
I though about that rule myself and I don´t really want it that easy to hit an unarmored character critically that easily.

So my rule will be: If you attack someone who is paralyzed in non-heavy armor, you may chose to try for a critical hit or not. Only if you don´t make a critical attempt you attack vs Dex=0. If you try to make a critical hit, you attack vs dex=10 (-5 penalty). The reasoning behind that is that it is not that easy to aim for the most vulnerable parts.
I rule stunned to just drop to dex=10. Down to 0 may be realistic, but advantage and dex=0 may be a bit too good.

[strikethough]Hmm. I like that the complexity is optional. But I don't understand what is physically happening with this rule. If Stan the Nimble (Dex 20) and Klutzy Bob (Dex 3) are both paralyzed and naked this round, and their nasty orc attackers are attempting to cut their throats via auto-crit, why is Stan still AC 15 and Bob AC 6? What about Stan makes him so much harder to hit?[/strikethrough]

Edit: never mind, I can't read. I understand and quite like your rule, now that I understand it.
 
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S'mon

Legend
I just have paralysed/sleeping characters lose any DEX AC bonus; dropping AC to 0 in addition to Advantage feels like double-counting. Out of combat with no time pressure I'd allow an auto-hit (& thus auto-crit).
 

S'mon

Legend
Whereas the benefit to making a rule instead of an hoc ruling is that it enhances player agency.

Maybe, for a certain sort of rules-bound player who likes to complain about "Mother May I?". My Classic D&D group feel they have plenty of agency, despite the lack of rules, because they can have their PCs attempt to do anything that a real person could do, plus some classes get special powers a real person couldn't do on top. Obviously they can pick up & carry around paralysed characters, limited only by their STR, no roll needed - and of course that's equally true in 5e, 4e, 3e/PF et al.
 

FormerlyHemlock

Adventurer
I just have paralysed/sleeping characters lose any DEX AC bonus; dropping AC to 0 in addition to Advantage feels like double-counting. Out of combat with no time pressure I'd allow an auto-hit (& thus auto-crit).

My issue with that option is that now you have people who actually get harder to hit when they're paralyzed, and that weirds me out.
 

FormerlyHemlock

Adventurer
Maybe, for a certain sort of rules-bound player who likes to complain about "Mother May I?". My Classic D&D group feel they have plenty of agency, despite the lack of rules, because they can have their PCs attempt to do anything that a real person could do, plus some classes get special powers a real person couldn't do on top. Obviously they can pick up & carry around paralysed characters, limited only by their STR, no roll needed - and of course that's equally true in 5e, 4e, 3e/PF et al.

Ideally you proactively address issues before your players perceive and complain about them. That doesn't mean that everyone has to address issues in the same way. If you've established a precedent at your table that "common sense" trumps the PHB (e.g. you allow auto-hits against sleeping/paralyzed creatures as long as the attacker is not in melee or under fire at the time; shields don't boost your AC when you get shot in the back; small falling creatures take less damage than large falling creatures; etc.) then players are empowered in a different way; they can do what makes sense to them in real-life terms and if the DM rules in a way they didn't expect, they can have a conversation with the DM about "really?" As long as those conversations don't happen too often--as long as the DM has about the same sense of what is possible and appropriate in real life as the players do--the players will feel empowered and will experience agency.

I prefer to address things in a more explicit way, such as the Rule of Yes which specifies that the first time a player tries something crazy and unusual, it just works the way you envisioned it, no rules arguing required. (There may still be an attack roll, skill contest, or damage roll involved.) If you ever try that same stunt again, then the DM will come up with actual rules for it and integrate it into the system; but the very first time you try to manacle the Yeti in combat, you get to use your normal attack roll (or Athletics check, or whatever you were thinking).

My players appreciate the Rule of Yes, and it encourages them to try new things and be creative. Could I perhaps get the same effect by just saying "yes" a lot over time and letting them pick up on it? Maybe so. But that also turns it into a bit of a metagame, "Is [DM] going to let me get away with [X]?" whereas I'd like the focus to be strictly on the game itself. I see value in being up-front about [most of] the rules by which we are playing the game. By instituting the Rule of Yes I avoid becoming a bottleneck on their window into the game world--whatever they can imagine in their heads is at least potentially possible in the game world, at least this time. [If they want it to become a permanent part of the gameworld we then have a conversation offline about it, e.g. "what would happen if an Earth Elemental fell on you? how much damage would that do?"]

Obviously your group is having fun in your own style, too. More power to you.
 
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makmaloko

Villager
Probably has been commented in these entire 3 pages, but the rulling was unnecessary in the first place

Rules for Grapple already say that you succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. The Paralyzed condition states that a paralyzed creature is incapacitated. Therefore...
 

FarBeyondC

Explorer
Probably has been commented in these entire 3 pages, but the rulling was unnecessary in the first place

Rules for Grapple already say that you succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. The Paralyzed condition states that a paralyzed creature is incapacitated. Therefore...

This is a thread from before the Rules for Grapple were errata-ed to include that line.
 

Okay, fair enough. I understand what you were getting at now.

Just to play devil's advocate, though, does grappling a statue have no chance of failure? Clearly the statue's (former) Strength and/or Dexterity don't contribute to that chance, but I can see a DM ruling that success is not guaranteed when you try to grab and secure a heavy, awkwardly shaped object quickly under combat pressure.
Indeed, the statue may offer no grip, and may be very hard to move or pull down. the overall weight can be multiplied by 2 or 3.
 

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