Parents Neglect - D&D named.....

[Ferret]

No. You have not. It was directed at your comment and not you.

And as it evidently crossed the line, I apologize.

I love ENWorld, in many other places I'd expect this to devolve into flames

Now onto the topic: This is a tragic thing for the two kids to go through, but there no indication of what the house was like or the parents (did they show the same neglect to the hygiene of the house etc?). The lines about the cause of the neglect and the symptoms ("too distracted by online video games" and "They had food; they just chose not to give it to their kids because they were too busy playing video games.") both come for the prosecutor, whose job it is to blame someone/thing. She couldn't build a case on them *just* being bad parents. At least that's my view. Her case needed to build on the ideologies and myths that "TV rots your brain" and "Video games are bad for you" which a jury would be able to support and understand. Not that I can deny that the games are involved....but, do you see what I mean? She has to over emphasis it to make the point of their neglect.

The fact that they'd have to be on the computers long enough *not* to fee the kids says to me this was some sort of addiction. So they played lots, but you go for food yourself right and then you feed the kids? They'd have to be locked somewhere for the kids not to make it known that they want food.

I am on the side that this would have probably shown it's self somewhere else if it wasn't games. Maybe day-time TV, maybe something else. But the fact that Games are interactive means it would be harder to pull away from it. But to be that neglecting, they would have had to notice some sign of malnourishment, so they probably just didn't care. Who can say these kids weren't planned? Perhaps they escaped from the burden of parenthood by playing the games? I don't think there is enough evidence (give to us in the article at least, i.e daily routine etc.) to start blaming games or TV or anything else. In fact the article doesn't even seem to do that....exactly.

Anyway that's my £5.23..far more than I thought I'd be giving....And its all just opinion and conjecture... so don't take what I've said as anything but me reading between the lines.

 

[wingsandsword]

Do average news-reading people care about D&D anymore? I don't think so. Articles like this are always a good opportunity for gamers to relive past injustices... but really, this is only relevant for us. Nobody* else will notice a similar article among many. Nobody will take any anti-gaming action whatsoever. Pat Pulling is dead, and so is her movement.

Some people have long memories.

Back a decade ago, I wasn't allowed to play D&D or own anything with the D&D name on it because my dad remembered hearing in Church many years before about how D&D was satanic and evil and so on.

Now, I had my Star Wars RPG books, and other thing RPGs, but none of it had the D&D name on it, so it was okay. It wasn't until I was in college away from my dad that I could play D&D with impunity.

When I finally graduated I told dad that I'd spent most of my free time the last 4 years playing D&D and attributed that to being able to graduate. My biggest obstacle to graduation was the math requirement, but D&D taught me basic math and statistics enough to pass my required math classes. That and I pointed out how D&D is made by Hasbro, and how in the world is a major publicly traded company is going to openly sell a "satanic" product without a major media frenzy and if D&D caused so many suicides and all you'd imagine it would be more than just some propaganda from a decade or more ago. I also noted how many other things were supposed to be "satanic" (video games, bar codes, Proctor and Gamble, Santa Claus, Teletubbies, rock & roll, something new every few years it seems, if they were all true most things in our culture would be satanic). He begrudgingly relented at that point.

Circa 1999, our gaming club at College was the subject of an article from the campus newspaper, and the reporter knew absolutely nothing about D&D other than she vaguely heard things as a kid about how it was evil and satanic. We explained what it was, and she was genuinely amazed, she honestly thought it was some kind of game built around a satanic ritual or something like that.

Circa 2000 our gaming club received an angry letter from an anonymous party on campus that was outraged that we played D&D publicly and received support from the university (in the form of meeting rooms, storage space for books and minis, and office space for our club) for playing D&D. It was full of lines like "Don't you know that D&D makes people kill themselves?" (and a lot of religious lines that I'll leave out because of the nature of this board) and ended with a promise to rally the campus against us. That rallying never materialized, but somebody was upset enough with us to write that letter in the first place.

So, yes, some people do have long memories and they do remember all the satanism allegations. They might not be repeated as publicaly, but for some people that's all they have to associate with the words "Dungeons and Dragons".

 

[Steel_Wind]

Noone (at least I) said anything about parenting skills being improved by getting locked up. People who act like this should lose their right to ever have any contact with their kids, ever. The kids of this particular case (and in most of the others as well) are so young, so with a decent foster home, they should be fine.

YMMV ofc.

"Ever" is a big word. A very big word indeed. You ought not to use it hastily. A good practice, imo, it not to use it all.

I am in agreement that anyone who demonstrates a prediliction to carry on parenting in that manner should not be permitted to do so. On that we most certainy both agree.

But I am not a believer that a person cannot improve and see the error of their ways. Most do improve (and yes - some don't).

Moreover, such finality fails to appreciate the very great harm a permament end to their relationship with their birth mothers can cause to the children. Foster care is often a disastrous and very sad life for a great many children. It is something that many children do not recover from and it does them a great injustice and often worse harm. It is a last resort - not a first resort.

Were the mother to improve (and seeing as she has a job and this is not a case of hardcore drug addiction, it is very likely she would improve) it would be much more in the long-term interests of the children to be with their mother.

Yes. Really. It would be.

So you take them away in short term, set conditions for her to get them back and monitor the situation closely. It's not ideal, but it is the lesser of all evils. If the problem should recur - then matters may well prove to be different. But that's a bridge not yet crossed.

It was to these sorts of very final snap judgments that I responded to initially (and a little testily at that). The finality of taking children away forever and placing kids like this into the long-term foster care system is an unwise decision. It is not tempered with the practical knowlege that a long exposure to the courts and child welfare system would provide to you.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

No. You have not. It was directed at your comment and not you.

And as it evidently crossed the line, I apologize.

Water under the bridge.

As for why I was thinking that jail should be involved, Elf Witch put it quite succinctly: They harmed their children. That should always earn you jail. It was through negligence, not direct physical mistreatment, so they should not be punished as hard as a child abuser, but they should not be left free.

And after that, they should be forced to enter therapy.

 

[Drowbane]

Shoot 'em both (the parents, not the kids!). Seriously, we still put down rabid dogs... right?

22 months isn't old enough to remember thier shamefully awful parents, these kids could still have a good (hell, "normal" would be a vast improvement) life.

A grandparent or perhaps uncle/aunt could work.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

First and foremost:

The parents in question clearly are mentally abnormal. Their obsessive playing of computer games and so horribly neglecting their two children are indicative of psychosis and not an indictment of whatever game or games the couple were playing.

Cheerio,
Gary

I doubt that anyone here would blame the game, but I'm sure you know better than anyone here that there are people who will blame games.

We don't have the same prejudice against D&D or RPGs here in Germany, I guess mostly because is is virtually unknown here, but we have some "anti-gamist" movement here: The target of this is "killer games". Mostly First Person Shooters. I stopped counting the number of killing sprees on schools we had, followed by a media frenzy against computer games because those who went postal happened to play them (nevermind that millions of perfectly normal people do so, too), and then the media makes a point of blaming the games, politicians follow, some even stricter laws against such games are publicly demanded, and so on.

In fact, I was quite surprised when there was an incident in a school less than 50km from here and they didn't blame computer games. (Some guy shot his ex GF in the leg and fled into the city, where he shot himself when the police caught up with him. I think they later said that he had a incurable disease that would have killed him anyway, and that this, combined with rampant jealousy, was the reason why he did it).


Hereabouts, in order to get a decent shooter that isn't kindergardenised, you'll have to buy a foreign version (which is, of course, imported, so the price is often higher than that for local games), since local games are censured - often even those who'd have been cleared for adults of age 18+ only, anyway.


I don't have much hope for living to see the day when games will be blamed for all sorts of crimes first, instead of looking for the actual problem. Even if I lived another hundred years...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

i see no reason not to add video games to that list, especially given how they are designed to reward behavior with pleasures (lights, nice sounds, achievement, additional power, etc.)

Well, I know someone who is in therapy because of gaming addiction (WoW) and another who gave up the game by himself when he realised that he showed signs of addiction.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Water under the bridge.

As for why I was thinking that jail should be involved, Elf Witch put it quite succinctly: They harmed their children. That should always earn you jail. It was through negligence, not direct physical mistreatment, so they should not be punished as hard as a child abuser, but they should not be left free.

Punishment of that kind would lead to the following:

1 - Enforced separation from the children for longer than a family court might otherwise order as appropriate;

2- A felony conviction which would almost certainly put an end to the mother ever getting back the children, relegating them to a lifetime of foster care (the elder child at least). The tragedy of that outcome is quite a sad one, let me assure you;

3 - Even if the mother would regain custody of one or both, her employability with a felony conviction would be far less in most states. It is a lifetime economic sentence, again punishing the children indirectly. For negligence? Harsh indeed.

And so I put it to you that such "justice" would be far more likely to wreak long-term harm and do little to repair the situation or give the parent or the children the best chance of salvaging something from all of this. As matters currently stand, a MMO addicted parent is no harm to others in society, generally. The question is whether she is a harm to her children - and how best to address that.

Treatment as a condition of regaining custody ensures that the treatment will be sought and recieved - or the children will be gone.

On the other hand, the very real harm to both parent and child that would accompany imprisonment is exceedingly clear.

Punishment for punishment's sake may appeal to a need to mete out some "justice" - but the consequences of it are rarely addressed. Imprisonment and felony convictions usually end up doing more harm than good. For a first offender and for mere negligence? Not a wise course.

Anyways - I think we've strayed well into social commentary here, comparitive justice between Canada and the USA is a paragraph or two away and that's a toll-free call to politics. Let's leave it be.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

"Ever" is a big word. A very big word indeed. You ought not to use it hastily. A good practice, imo, it not to use it all.

So, you're basically saying that the word should not be used, ever?


I do agree with you that the parents seeing their children again should remain an option until they have proven to be incorrectible.

But before the kids are to be released back into their care, they have to be put into therapy and show actual signs of remorse and improvement.

When I read how they treated their children, I can't quite dismiss the suspicion that they don't really bother about their kids, and wouldn't be too sad about the kids being away. That might change once they get over their addiction and stop and think about what they've done, but their actions have shown that the game was more important to them than their own children, and probably still is right now.

 

[Jack99]

@SteelWind

I agree with you to a certain degree, that "ever" is a big word, and that in most cases the child is better off with its birth parent(s). And while it is quite possible to change oneself, there are, in my opinion, some things that is too much to redeem yourself from. This is one of those things. While you are correct that she isnt a hardcore drug addict or anything like that, and thus has a decent possibility to get back on track, one could argue that the lack of hardcore drug involvement is precisely why she shouldnt be given a second chance. I mean, if she was high on crack (or whatever is in these days), one could arguably understand why she had neglected her children. But over a computergame? There must be something more "wrong" with her, than just a simple addiction.

Anyway, it also seems that our two countries have a very different standard when it comes to our foster care system, which also makes it hard for us to see things eye to eye.

My 2 cp