[Partial OT] The Monte Cook Ranger

[Christian]

no it's not broken, basically it takes away the front loaded and limiting aspect of the class and also gives the powergamer inside each of us reasons to take more then a single level.

I'm sorry, but it really doesn't. The limiting aspects of the class have been removed, but the front-loading is worse.

Compare a Ftr x with a Rgr 1/Ftr x-1 using Monte's ranger. Then ask yourself why anyone would ever play a straight fighter if Monte's ranger were allowed in a campaign. (Other than 'flavor' reasons. ) Over the course of a game, the Rgr/Ftr will have two fewer hit points and half a point lower Will save, 'balanced' by half a feat more, a better skill list, many more skill points, a point-and-a-half better Reflex save ... NIMC.

(Before anyone asks-the 'half' points and feats are averages. Eg. on alternate levels, the Rgr/Ftr will have either one more feat or the same number of feats as a straight Ftr of the same level.)

 

[Hakkenshi]

But I should think that flavour reasons make all the difference.
And on top of that, you're comparing Rgr 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. That's not fair.

That's like comparing a Mnk 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. The former has evasion, two bonus feats and MUCH better saves, plus more skill points, Wis bonus to AC unarmed, better unarmed damage, etc. etc.

Or even with a Rogue. Or a Barbarian. Or hell, any damn class you want. They all have decent reasons to take a level of them. The character's flavour is what makes you choose, for example, to be the straight Fighter as opposed to multiclassing, because your character is a Fighter, and not a wilderness-type, or a sneaky-type, or a martial arts-type.

 

[Crothian]

MC's ranger is pretty good. With the feats and skill points it might make it a little easy to get into some prestige classes.

 

[hong]

But I should think that flavour reasons make all the difference.
And on top of that, you're comparing Rgr 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. That's not fair.

That's like comparing a Mnk 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. The former has evasion, two bonus feats and MUCH better saves, plus more skill points, Wis bonus to AC unarmed, better unarmed damage, etc. etc.

Well, yes. The consensus is that the monk is one of the most front-loaded classes around.

 

[Darkness]

Well, yes. The consensus is that the monk is one of the most front-loaded classes around.

Clerics ain't too shabby in that regard, either (although not as bad), considering that they get all their powers at 1st level (as opposed to wizards - who get Feats and new familiar powers - and sorcerers).

 

[Darkness]

Hmmm... Further, I think I ought to move this to House Rules...

 

[mattcolville]

I like some of the special abilities of "Matt's Ranger" but the creature lore just doesn't do it for me. I guess as a DM I wouldn't want players looking at stats in the MM. The DM could pass "in character" notes to the ranger rather than the ranger making in character notes to the other players.

It really bugs me that there's nothing like Creature Lore in the game. Seems like someone should be able to know something about monsters, but there isn't any mechanical way to express this.

How the player gets the information is still something I'm playing around with. Originally, I le the player just look up the entry in the MM and do what he wanted with it, but that was too munchkiny. Then I switched it to what you suggest, I even came up with a system for describing the stats to the player. A creature would be described as "easy to hit" meaning an AC between 0-15. But it ended up being a whole lotta rules for one special ability.

 

[mattcolville]

Matt's ranger sounds cool and I would love to play one, but isn't it a little too powerful?

I don't know, what do you think?

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I don't know, what do you think?

It looks cool- very cool- I am finally put the ranger class back in the game.

Some questions (sorry if I am just missing the answers)-

Creature Lore- How many times can a ranger do it and how long does it last for consideration of their higher level powers?

Does Camoflauge work at all times or only when outdoors?

It would be cool if the Creature Lore skill could be specialized on the different creature types- and have that work into the higher level powers of your Ranger.

The skill could still have a generic use, but the ranger could take Creature Lore (Dragon) and use the ranks in the specialized skills to determine if the combat abilities based on the skill are in effect or not.

If that made any sense. heh.

FD

 

[Christian]

But I should think that flavour reasons make all the difference.
And on top of that, you're comparing Rgr 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. That's not fair.

That's like comparing a Mnk 1/Ftr Whatever to straight Ftr Whatever +1. The former has evasion, two bonus feats and MUCH better saves, plus more skill points, Wis bonus to AC unarmed, better unarmed damage, etc. etc.

Or even with a Rogue. Or a Barbarian. Or hell, any damn class you want. They all have decent reasons to take a level of them. The character's flavour is what makes you choose, for example, to be the straight Fighter as opposed to multiclassing, because your character is a Fighter, and not a wilderness-type, or a sneaky-type, or a martial arts-type.

Baloney. 'Flavor' does not make up for balance issues. This is one of the primary lessons learned from 1st and 2nd Edition.

Of course there will be some differences in ability between a character with one level in a good class and one who put that level in his primary class. The thing is, you're always giving something up, too. Put one of your Fighter's levels in Rogue, you're giving up half a point of Fortitude save, about two hit points (four if you do it at first level, when you maximize the skill point bonus), one point of BAB, and half a feat. For a lot fewer advantages than you get with the MC Ranger. (Relative to the MC Ranger, this character gets a few extra skill points & class skills and 1d6 sneak attack, versus an extra feat, more hit points, 2 full points of Fortitude save, and +1 BAB.)

I don't have an issue with alt.rangers. You'll find one of my own at the Ranger Project. But Monte's is considerably overpowered, and makes one of the biggest problems with the PH Ranger (the front-loading) noticeably worse.