[Partial OT] The Monte Cook Ranger

[bloodymage]

Rangers: A ranger does not have any automatic two-weapon proficiencies. He takes weapon specialization as a fighter and gains a bonus feat every 4 levels starting at 2nd (half as fast as a normal fighter due to wilderness studies). He has no favored enemies (except as a possible personal quirk). At 1st level a ranger has Track as a bonus feat. He has Wilderness Lore as a bonus skill (maximum skill level at no extra cost) and 1 extra skill point + Wis modifier which can be applied to any of the following skills in any combination: animal empathy, climb, handle animal, heal, hide, intuit direction, knowledge (nature), listen, move silently, ride, spot, swim or use rope. At every level the ranger would gain a new favored enemy, he instead acquires an additional bonus skill point + Wis modifier and a bonus point to apply only to Wilderness Lore.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nah, you're missing the point of munchkining with this class. It's all about multiclassing one level for a free bonus feat, track, favored enemy, +2 to fort and reflex saves (esp reflex--traditionally a weakness for a heavily armored fighter), the ability to use wands of cure light wounds, and a bundle of skill points to dump into very useful skills.

Ftr 2/Psi War 2/Monte Cook Ranger 1
1. Dodge
Ftr 1: Mobility
Ftr 2: Expertise
3. Exotic Weapon
Psi War 1: Weapon Focus
Psi War 2: Spring Attack
Monte Cook Ranger 1:Whirlwind Attack
I believe that this is, by the rules, one level earlier than it is otherwise possible to qualify for weapon master.

It's quite likely that characters looking to quickly qualify for classes like cavalier, deepwood sniper, order of the bow initiate, Arcane Archer, and Knight Protector would also take one level of the Monte-cook ranger for the bonus feat. In fact, I can't really think of any situation where it would be more advantageous to be a single classed fighter of level 4 or higher instead of a Ftr x-1/Monte Cook ranger 1.

Well, the only way to know how a class stands up is to play it. I've got a 5th level (soon to be sixth) Ranger of the Monte Cook Variety. I'm going to take the Deepwood Sniper, but not until I reach 7th level of Ranger.

So far, there have been no problems with me being over powered. Actually, I would say I'm about average power wise.

Now, if you really want to find out if the class helps one get into prestige classes, start plugging the numbers. Pick a prestige class that a Ranger type would go for, see how easy you can get it with the core rules, then compare to the MC Ranger. I haven't done this, so until then it's just a guess.

 

[Jalkain]

Well, the only way to know how a class stands up is to play it. I've got a 5th level (soon to be sixth) Ranger of the Monte Cook Variety. I'm going to take the Deepwood Sniper, but not until I reach 7th level of Ranger.

True enough. And while I don't think people should have to play through every variant class that appears on the boards in order to evaluate it (takes too much time), it is certainly useful to hear from people who've played the class.


So far, there have been no problems with me being over powered. Actually, I would say I'm about average power wise. [/QUOTE]

Thinking back to old 1st Ed., there were some classes that obviously were more powerful than others. The gulf was often quite a bit bigger than in 3rd Ed, especially when the DM decided to 'just house rule that one little thing'. Even then, it's not like the other players were completely sidelined.

I once played the magic-user (wizard) in a campaign where the DM used the old segments as combat rounds, but didn't change the spell descriptions. Serious drawback for spell casters, and not even in a low magic setting (you could buy magic items in shops!) By the time I'd cast a 5th level spell, the combat might well be over! But I still managed to be useful to the party.

So I guess that while a class might appear genuinely superior on paper, the effect might not be that obvious in a campaign, simply because of all the random factors, combined with the fact that you are (usually!) cooperating with your comrades and pooling your skills and resources.

That said, there's no reason to give even a 'theoretical' overall advantage to one class - the first step to constructing a class is always to check it's strengths against similar classes. And here I have to agree with Elder Basilisk - both the fighter and Monte's ranger get that bonus feat at first level, and look at all the extra stuff the ranger gets, for two less hitpoints, and no heavy armour. At least the PHB didn't let you choose your feat, and gave the same saves as a fighter.


Now, if you really want to find out if the class helps one get into prestige classes, start plugging the numbers. Pick a prestige class that a Ranger type would go for, see how easy you can get it with the core rules, then compare to the MC Ranger. I haven't done this, so until then it's just a guess. [/QUOTE]

I'll have a look when I get some time. The prestige classes for which Monte's ranger would have the most advantage would be one's with high feat/skill requirements, but with a low BAB requirment (otherwise you give other fighter types a few extra levels to get the other requisites).

Maybe there aren't too many of these, and I'm just barking up the wrong tree. Wouldn't be the first time...

 

[Crothian]

Nah, you're missing the point of munchkining with this class.

It's quite likely that characters looking to quickly qualify for classes like cavalier, deepwood sniper, order of the bow initiate, Arcane Archer, and Knight Protector would also take one level of the Monte-cook ranger for the bonus feat. In fact, I can't really think of any situation where it would be more advantageous to be a single classed fighter of level 4 or higher instead of a Ftr x-1/Monte Cook ranger 1.

Okay, so its abusible by people looking to abuse it. I don't consider that a problem with the class, I consider that a problem with the player.

Also, is gaining a prestige class a level early really that big of deal?

 

[KarinsDad]

Nono, I welcome questions and criticism. This isn't a finished version, it's more like a first pass.

Wilderness Awareness:

This should not be so automatic. It should be a bonus to a spot roll such as +5 or +1 per 2 levels.

You can still make it an extraordinary ability or supernatural ability, even if it is a spot roll.


Free Climber:

This should not be so high. Yes, they screwed up and put +10 Elven Cloaks and Boots in the game (for a ludicrous low cost), but +10 in a skill is about equal to 3 feats.

+5 or +1 per 2 levels is more reasonable.


Camouflage:

Same thing. +10 to two skills is potent.

 

[Christian]

Well, the only way to know how a class stands up is to play it. I've got a 5th level (soon to be sixth) Ranger of the Monte Cook Variety. I'm going to take the Deepwood Sniper, but not until I reach 7th level of Ranger.

So far, there have been no problems with me being over powered. Actually, I would say I'm about average power wise.

The only way to tell is not just to play it, but to play with it, try to do some min-maxing. You know somebody will ...

The class isn't overpowered as a straight class, I think. (Maybe a tiny bit ...) My question is: for someone playing a straight fighter or planning to take at least one level of fighter for their multiclass character, what possible reason (other than flavor) could they have for not taking one level of MC ranger rather than one level of fighter?

Nobody who thought about it for more than two seconds would do this. Ergo, there is a balance problem with the MC ranger.

 

[hobbes]

Okay, so its abusible by people looking to abuse it. I don't consider that a problem with the class, I consider that a problem with the player.

Agreed. Also, this is very easily solved. House rule: prestige classes require a certain character level before you can use them. By using that, you can have the prestige class unavailable to munchkins any earlier than real players.

The DM makes the rules. period. If the player doesn't like it, then don't play.

Do munchkins know they are munchkins?

 

[Crothian]

The only way to tell is not just to play it, but to play with it, try to do some min-maxing. You know somebody will ...

The class isn't overpowered as a straight class, I think. (Maybe a tiny bit ...) My question is: for someone playing a straight fighter or planning to take at least one level of fighter for their multiclass character, what possible reason (other than flavor) could they have for not taking one level of MC ranger rather than one level of fighter?

Nobody who thought about it for more than two seconds would do this. Ergo, there is a balance problem with the MC ranger.

I refuse to get rid of everything that can be min maxed. That's not the way I, or the people I play with, play the game. Flavor reasons are prevolent in our games.

If one's game is not like this, then you might have problems with this (and many other) parts of the game. The reason to multi class is for flavor, not for power.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I refuse to get rid of everything that can be min maxed. That's not the way I, or the people I play with, play the game. Flavor reasons are prevolent in our games.

If one's game is not like this, then you might have problems with this (and many other) parts of the game. The reason to multi class is for flavor, not for power.

It's not a matter of getting rid of everything that can be min-maxed. It's a matter of getting rid of things which are overly advantageous to min-max.

That was the primary complaint about the PHB ranger: that it was too front loaded, giving two weapon fighting, ambidexterity, tracking, good skill points with good skills to put them in, the ability to use wands of CLW, etc. Essentially, there were very few reasons to play a two weapon fighter without that ranger level. Monte Cook's version has made the problem worse by replacing the ambidexterity and two weapon fighting with a bonus feat that is useful for almost any feat chain a fighting class could want, giving a bonus to reflex saves as well as fortitude, and increasing the skill points all for the cost of (on average) one hit point. At least people who multiclass fighter for the bonus feat get only one bonus feat (no tracking here), only one increased saving throw, no skillpoints, and few useful skills to put the non-existant skill points into. There's a definite trade-off if you multi-class into fighter. Not so with the ranger--either PHB or Monte Cook version.

As to the "multiclassing for flavor reasons" rather than power, that's all well and good but flavor very often coincides with power. My Living Arcanis Bbn 2/Ftr 1 will probably be taking a level of cleric very soon. Why? Because he's planning on paying for a failure that cost thousands of people their lives by bearing the suffering of of the suffering goddess. Of course it comes with that nifty travel domain too. Similarly, a character in another campaign started out as ranger before multiclassing cleric, paladin, and templar (well the paladin and templar levels never materialized, the game ended too soon). Why? Because it fit in with the concept of a outcast defender of the people who gradually realized how to fill his calling and lift an ancient curse by fulfilling his family's duty from long ago. But that doesn't change the fact that he got a lot from that first ranger level. . . . Flavor and power aren't mutually exclusive and a power imbalance in classes will not go away because your players are really into flavor. It will just mean that some flavors are more powerful (and hence, useful and survivable) than others.

 

[Alchemist]

<snip>
My question is: for someone playing a straight fighter or planning to take at least one level of fighter for their multiclass character, what possible reason (other than flavor) could they have for not taking one level of MC ranger rather than one level of fighter?

<snip>

Would the simple solution not be to move that bonus feat @ 1st level to a bonus feat @ 2nd level? That adjusts the loading slightly, but makes a world of difference for your min/maxers. We have a standard ranger in our game, but next reboot we're going to use MC's ranger, with the suggested adjustment. It's not like my players are big min/max freaks, but it can't hurt.