Party headed for a TPK?

[Quasqueton]

The party:

5th level Cleric - good and trickery
5th level Fighter - mobile greatsworder
5th level Sorceror - blaster
5th level Fighter/Rogue - rapier
5th level Paladin - social, not combat oriented at all

They've explored a good deal in the dungeon, then come in the south door of a big 80x80 room with three other doors (one in each wall). They spot shallow grooves in the ceiling and floor, crisscrossing the room from corner to corner. They expect a trap.

The fighter/rogue goes in, alone, to check the eastern door for traps. He finds nothing (vs.DC 35). (I am holding back a laugh at this point.) He tries the door.

As soon as he touches the door, two iron walls are conjured up, along the grooves. The room is now divided into 4 smaller areas. Then a medium earth elemental appears in the "quarter" room next to the fighter/rogue. And one appears in the "quarter" room with the rest of the party.

The fighter/rogue goes down after a fight.

The rest of the party kills their elemental. But then they ... split ... up.

The paladin runs out to the east, to a hallway they saw earlier, trying to find a back way in through the eastern door to help the fighter/rogue. The cleric runs out to the west, to his own hallway, trying to find a back way in through the western door. Both of these hallways are trapped!

The fighter starts attacking the iron wall, in an attempt to chop through. The sorcerer tries burning through the wall with almost all of her remaing scorching rays.

Just as the paladin and the cleric are about to run headlong into their own traps in the side hallways, the iron walls disappear. The first elemental, plus two elementals that were summoned into the other two quarters are now rush out at the fighter and sorcerer. (The paladin and cleric are at least two rounds away if they decide to come back if and when the fighter and/or sorcerer yell for help.)

We broke the game here. But I'm wondering if I'll need to start planning for another campaign after a TPK. I'm also wondering if they'll get the idea that they're not ready for this dungeon yet?

Quasqueton

 

[Lord Pendragon]

We broke the game here. But I'm wondering if I'll need to start planning for another campaign after a TPK. I'm also wondering if they'll get the idea that they're not ready for this dungeon yet?

It would never occur to me that the game, at 5th-level, would lead to a dungeon with DC 35 traps. Therefore I'd have assumed that I failed to detect the trap, but that it was detectable. It'd take several TPKs for me to realize I was just in a dungeon way out of my league. At that point, I'd probably quit the game. At 5th-level, I expect challenges that can be overcome by 5th-level characters.

You must be of the other school of thought, those DMs who like to set down high-level challenges by design before the campaign starts, and let the PCs/players run or die when they encounter them. Fair enough. If your players are the same, then I'm guessing two or three TPKs will give them the general idea, assuming it's always traps that do them in. If there are wandering monsters that just paste them, they might get the idea more quickly.

 

[the Jester]

But then they ... split ... up.

Sigh... damn, you'd think by 5th level a party would know better, especially in a trap-laden area.

I'll say it again:

But then they ... split ... up.

Sigh...

 

[demiurge1138]

I agree with Jester. The first rule is do not split up. That's just begging for death.

Hopefully, they'll be smart enough to know to run after the first fatality, so a TPK doesn't ensue.

Demiurge out.

 

[atom crash]

Are you by any chance running The Lost City of Barakus?

This reminds me of a similar situation Wulf Ratbane posted several months ago about his Lost City of Barakus campaign, IIRC, except it was dire apes rather than earth elementals. And his party too got into serious trouble when they split up.

I learned long ago never to split up the party. My 1st Ed. DM didn't want to do separate encounters, so if one person wandered off by himself in Greyhawk (or any other city) a press gang magically appeared. The moral: If you split up the party, you better have a back-up character ready.

 

[Steel_Wind]

While I agree that the party ought not to split up - I also agree that a DC35 trap of that kind is over the top.

I think the party needs a change of tactics; I think the DM does too.

 

[swrushing]

I'm also wondering if they'll get the idea that they're not ready for this dungeon yet?

As a GM, this would be the kind of behavior i try to discourage.

After a TPK, the players should not suddenly assume their new, possibly totally unrelated to the old guys, characters somehow have all the knowledge of the dead PCs. So, they should mnot play their new guys with knowledge of how dangerous that dungeon was and whether or not they should go there.

If they follow a similar clue trail which led the old characters to the place, it should be "in character" or likely "in character" for their new guys to wind up with the same situation to resolve.

TPKs are not learning opportunities. Dead character's don't learn. Their stories are done. Surviving or brought back cgaracters might, as their stories continue.

 

[Graf]

I think people are rushing into judgement too quickly....

The situation itself is fine provided there have been two things:
1. You have explained Out of Character to the players that you have "status quo" areas of the game that are accessable to lower level characters. Many players will not assume that you are running this kind of world, it needs to be explained. In advance.
2. There have been in character warnings about the relative dangerousness of the dunegon and the players have had other choices for adventuring.

Provided the above two conditions have been filled you are 100% OK in wiping them out without mercy. To a certain degree players will appriciate you for sticking to you guns and it will make the game both immersive and their later successes more meaningful.

-If- you have not fulfilled those two conditions then you have some serious thinking to do.
You must explain point one....
Point two is more difficult to navigate, but setting the scene by reminding them about the dire warnings their character's recieved when they entered the dungeon, and asking them what their plans are is a good idea.

Incidentally they sound very inexperienced (splitting up, wasting spells attacking magical walls, etc). You should try to be nice, be sympathetic, give them time, feel free to say "your character has experienced some tough spots before, but this is the first time you have absolutely no idea about how to get out of this alive".

If you define victory for them as "survival" then that can be OK.

 

[Corsair]

This reminds me of a similar situation Wulf Ratbane posted several months ago about his Lost City of Barakus campaign, IIRC, except it was dire apes rather than earth elementals. And his party too got into serious trouble when they split up.

For a second I had deja vu. I was thinking to myself, "I recognize this story... but where at the monkeys?"

 

[spectre72]

I really think that in some instances the CR system has done D&D a disfavor.

There are powerfull things in the world that low level characters should avoid, and if the players decide to storm a vampires castle at first level they will get what is coming to them.

I give plenty of hints and clues when they are about to embark on such a quest, sometimes going as far as giving dreams of their own death.

Plot hooks should be dropped for many different paths, sometimes players will pick up on one that was a bad idea to follow at that time.

That said I HATE it when a player starts whining about CR ratings of a creature that just killed him/her.

If at 1st level you fight a creature that have only heard of in legends (giant, dragon, lich, ...etc.) you should expect to die. And after the combat is over don't cry to me that the creature is much to dangerous for a 1st level character. I wasn't the one who decided to stay and fight after numberous warnings, portents, signs, and sometimes direct DM warnings.

But since 3E was released I have played with too many people who will stand there and fight because they believe that I would never put a hazard in their path that they cannot overcome, WRONG

If at 1st level you are about to enter a cave and outside are a bunch of stone statues, including one you recognize as a legendary hero you met as a youth.

Perhaps you should be somewhere else.

If you go into the cave and die that is your fault.

CR is a guide for creating an encounter of a specific challenge, but it is not a rule that I can't place encounters of a given challenge wherever I want.

There are times when running away is the solution because in my campaigns there are things that characters will encounter that they cannot defeat until later.

Otherwise where do all of the high level challenges live?

After some time playing in an environment there high level challenges exist players adapt and start to be more cautious about their choice of opponents.

And if they run into a garden of stone statues at low level they think about their response before charging into the cave.

Just my opinion which as always is usually different than 75% of the other people who play.

And as far as splitting up, never.....