D&D 5E Party Optimization

[Unwise]

Isn't a Dex barbarian giving up a lot of the benefits of Rage or is it Reckless Attack, that only works on Str attacks?

The Barbarian in my group is Str based and has 14 Dex which, with stealth trained should be fine to play with the rogues. They go a bit ahead, then signal you up when needed. Nobody with Dex base and double proficiency in a stealth wants a non-rogue following them around too closely anyway. Don't underestimate the importance of having somebody strong in a party. One of my current groups has a cleric with 16 str and everybody else has 8. The amount of times his Str is needed is ridiculous.

I may have missed it, but has the cleric chosen his domain yet? If you did go with a decently, but not very, sneaky character, then the group would be well served with a Trickery cleric. Normally they are pretty bad, but in a group like this it could work well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Isn't a Dex barbarian giving up a lot of the benefits of Rage or is it Reckless Attack, that only works on Str attacks?

The Barbarian in my group is Str based and has 14 Dex which, with stealth trained should be fine to play with the rogues. They go a bit ahead, then signal you up when needed. Nobody with Dex base and double proficiency in a stealth wants a non-rogue following them around too closely anyway. Don't underestimate the importance of having somebody strong in a party. One of my current groups has a cleric with 16 str and everybody else has 8. The amount of times his Str is needed is ridiculous.

I may have missed it, but has the cleric chosen his domain yet? If you did go with a decently, but not very, sneaky character, then the group would be well served with a Trickery cleric. Normally they are pretty bad, but in a group like this it could work well.

To keep with the stealth theme, a dex based melee paladin would work well too.

 

[Flamestrike]

Isn't a Dex barbarian giving up a lot of the benefits of Rage or is it Reckless Attack, that only works on Str attacks?

Yeah its not the way I would go.

Dip Rogue 2. Its shockingly good on a Barbarian. Expertise in Perception and Athletics [you could just as easily go Stealth] and cunning action [bonus action run for double distance charge] is pretty amazing on a Barbarian.

Champion dip of 3 levels for [19-20 crit + Reckless attack + Brutal critical] and action surge/ GWS is amazing also.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah its not the way I would go.

Dip Rogue 2. Its shockingly good on a Barbarian. Expertise in Perception and Athletics [you could just as easily go Stealth] and cunning action [bonus action run for double distance charge] is pretty amazing on a Barbarian.

Champion dip of 3 levels for [19-20 crit + Reckless attack + Brutal critical] and action surge/ GWS is amazing also.

I think you generally overvalue level dipping. Most of the time you sacrifice much more than you can possibly gain and end up delaying better class features for small gains.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think you generally overvalue level dipping. Most of the time you sacrifice much more than you can possibly gain and end up delaying better class features for small gains.

I generally agree with you but [action surge, second wind, GW style and a 19-20 crit range] on a barbarian isnt really a 'sacrifice'!

With advantage [from reckless attack], your chance of a 'natural 20' or a crit [triggering brutal critical] is 9.75%

This increases to a 19% chance of a crit per attack with a 19-20 crit range from Champion 3. That's a 1/5 chance of a crit each time you swing opposed to a 1/10.

The bonus action self heal from second wind is twice as effective considering you're taking half damage due to rage, GWS is always nice when youre throwing bucketloads of d12s around, and as for action surge... well - it's action surge!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think you generally overvalue level dipping. Most of the time you sacrifice much more than you can possibly gain and end up delaying better class features for small gains.

Barbarian is a bit of an exception there because they really don't have any worthwhile class features after they get Extra Attack at level 5.

 

[FrogReaver]

Barbarian is a bit of an exception there because they really don't have any worthwhile class features after they get Extra Attack at level 5.

Level
6: +1 rage
7: Feral Instinct (Very close to the Alert Feat)
8. ASI

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What multiclass can compare to that?
6: Fighting Style
7: Action Surge
8: 4 superiority dice

+1 rage > Fighting Style (IMO)
+1 rage + Feral Instinct > Fighting Style + Action Surge (IMO)
+1 rage + Feral Instinct + ASI (DEPENDS on other choices for which is better) Fighting Style + Action Surge + Superiority Dice (IMO)

 

[Noctem]

Well I don't think I can agree with you on this point. I think rage is only "so-so" and feral instinct is such a double edged sword considering how easily advantage can be achieved that it's only "good". On the other hand an extra Action every short rest is "excellent" because the action can be used for any number of things. No downside either. Fighting styles are "always" on benefits with, again, no downside. Archery +2 bonus to hit is simply the best for ranged characters. Dueling +2 damage is also solid for any melee weapon character, and you can still use a shield. So imo fighter is better than barb at level 1-2 regardless of being ranged or melee. Level 3 you get your specializations which again imo, fighter wins. The only good subclass that the barbarian gets is Totem Warrior. The only good thing about rage is the damage bonus. Fighter gets an "always on" damage bonus (though perhaps a lower number). You have to rage which you can only do a limited number of times per day with severe draw backs the more you do it. I'll take my always on benefit ty

So if the question is "should I MC fighter with my barbarian to get a Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, and one of the best tactical subclasses in the game?" the answer from an optimization point of view is basically yes almost every single time. Fighter is that good. But that's a problem too, if you have something that good everything else should be brought up to par or it should be nerfed down imo.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Level
6: +1 rage
7: Feral Instinct (Very close to the Alert Feat)
8. ASI

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What multiclass can compare to that?
6: Fighting Style
7: Action Surge
8: 4 superiority dice

+1 rage > Fighting Style (IMO)
+1 rage + Feral Instinct > Fighting Style + Action Surge (IMO)
+1 rage + Feral Instinct + ASI (DEPENDS on other choices for which is better) Fighting Style + Action Surge + Superiority Dice (IMO)

How about Barbarian 3/Bladelock 5? You still get Extra Attack (with your Pact weapon anyway). You get temp HP that stacks with Rage, via Armor of Agathys III and/or Dark One's Blessing. You get Fireball and Fly and Devil's Sight and a good ranged attack which makes up for the fact that you can't afford to Rage in every fight. You'll have GWM and Polearm Master and Str 16ish.

Or you could go Barbarian 8 and get 10' move movement speed, an ASI (Str 18ish), and advantage on initiative. You'll be somewhat more effective than the warbearian in melee, on the order of 20%. That's not much of a return on investment for missing out on five warlock levels. Oh, and you don't have a CHA dependency--that probably results in you having higher Dex than a warbearian would.

Warbearian is (IMO) the clearly superior multiclass combination, if you have the stats for MAD. If you don't you're better off as a Barbarian 2/Champion X. If you love Feral Instinct so much, just pump your Champion 6 ASI into Alert--it's actually superior to Feral Instinct.

 

[FrogReaver]

How about Barbarian 3/Bladelock 5? You still get Extra Attack (with your Pact weapon anyway). You get temp HP that stacks with Rage, via Armor of Agathys III and/or Dark One's Blessing. You get Fireball and Fly and Devil's Sight and a good ranged attack which makes up for the fact that you can't afford to Rage in every fight. You'll have GWM and Polearm Master and Str 16ish.

Or you could go Barbarian 8 and get 10' move movement speed, an ASI (Str 18ish), and advantage on initiative. You'll be somewhat more effective than the warbearian in melee, on the order of 20%. That's not much of a return on investment for missing out on five warlock levels. Oh, and you don't have a CHA dependency--that probably results in you having higher Dex than a warbearian would.

Warbearian is (IMO) the clearly superior multiclass combination, if you have the stats for MAD. If you don't you're better off as a Barbarian 2/Champion X. If you love Feral Instinct so much, just pump your Champion 6 ASI into Alert--it's actually superior to Feral Instinct.

But now you are not leveling as a barbarian. You are leaving as a warlock and tacking on 3 levels of barbarian at the end. I like the combo but don't act like its a replacement for starting as barbarian.