Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

[Retreater]

And @Retreater just added a complaint about PbtA, just to be different.

I complain a lot.

And given my user name, I should be able to contribute more to the retreating debate.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Is Paizo being held to a different standard? Or are we only talking about Paizo here because this is the Pathfinder board? I’m pretty sure that if you go to the D&D boards, or the other role-playing boards, complaints about similar issues come up periodically.

I mean, kind of? It's obscured by severe topic drift at this point, but the idea was that retreat in regards to the monsters using non-optimal tactics (which is a side argument itself to the difficulty and deadliness of PF2), which I remember pointing out that the rules themselves basically say to let the players go when it comes to guidance. Then it became a broader discussion of creating retreat mechanics?

 

[Retreater]

I mean, kind of? It's obscured by severe topic drift at this point, but the idea was that retreat in regards to the monsters using non-optimal tactics (which is a side argument itself to the difficulty and deadliness of PF2), which I remember pointing out that the rules themselves basically say to let the players go when it comes to guidance. Then it became a broader discussion of creating retreat mechanics?

Well, the OP was asking if 10 minute "heal breaks" were built-in assumptions in the system. And now we're up to 14 pages. Lots of topic drift here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Is Paizo being held to a different standard? Or are we only talking about Paizo here because this is the Pathfinder board? I’m pretty sure that if you go to the D&D boards, or the other role-playing boards, complaints about similar issues come up periodically.

And @Retreater just added a complaint about PbtA, just to be different.

If this was a general thread or a general D&D thread I'd entirely buy into that. As it is, I'm not convinced some people aren't essentially deciding This Is Another Thing Wrong With PF2e, rather than this is a thing that most games handle badly.

There's some relevance here because there's been discussion about what to do when a PF2e encounter goes south, but it still adds up to "Retreating often sucks in RPGs, news at 11." And when at least some of us suggest ways to make it better (looking at Keneda here) someone suggests that the only logical way to do it is to use the combat system as-is, so I think pointing out that doing that generates bad outcomes in, well, damn near anything that isn't pretty stylized is legitimate.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, the OP was asking if 10 minute "heal breaks" were built-in assumptions in the system. And now we're up to 14 pages. Lots of topic drift here.

With a long thread that's inevitable, but it still tends to suggest the problem is more profound with PF2e in particular, which, well, really isn't true; this was a problem I saw come up with OD&D 40-odd years ago, and there really hasn't been much done to fix it in most games since.

So on one level its legitimate to note this doesn't work well just using the combat system, but acting like its an additional sin of PF2e in this area when practically every trad game has it seems a bit off if not outright suspect.

 

[payn]

If this was a general thread or a general D&D thread I'd entirely buy into that. As it is, I'm not convinced some people aren't essentially deciding This Is Another Thing Wrong With PF2e, rather than this is a thing that most games handle badly.

There's some relevance here because there's been discussion about what to do when a PF2e encounter goes south, but it still adds up to "Retreating often sucks in RPGs, news at 11." And when at least some of us suggest ways to make it better (looking at Keneda here) someone suggests that the only logical way to do it is to use the combat system as-is, so I think pointing out that doing that generates bad outcomes in, well, damn near anything that isn't pretty stylized is legitimate.

To be fair, the thread is about PF2 and RAW/RAI which is why folks are examining the ruleset specifically. I dont mind the suggestions, but folks are looking for what the rulebooks say one way or another.

 

[Thomas Shey]

To be fair, the thread is about PF2 and RAW/RAI which is why folks are examining the ruleset specifically. I dont mind the suggestions, but folks are looking for what the rulebooks say one way or another.

And in general, that's fine. I'm arguing with some tonal presentations here. To illustrate the difference with this, there's some significant difference between the sentences that follow: "As with most game, PF2e provides you no help here" "PF2e provides you no help here."

The later puts this problem as a specific flaw of the game system, rather than a generic lack that's common to the hobby.

 

[Teemu]

Pathfinder 2 actually works significantly differently than most other D&D games. You can move three times your Speed, not just two.

The rulebook comes off as totally clueless about this.

You can run four times your speed in 3.5 and PF1. You can run double plus 20 feet in 4e. Only 5e has double speed, or triple for rogues. Don’t know about pre-3e movement rules.

 

[glass]

The rules often dictate the plot. Want to have the stench of a sewer be over-powering to the senses of a character, better check to see if someone has a feat to say that they treat saves against smells as one step better.

Is that a feat that actually exists? And either way, why would you need to check?

Want to have the party go against an evil illusionist, better keep in mind that illusion saves are easier to make than other saves.

They are? In what way?

You can run four times your speed in 3.5 and PF1. You can run double plus 20 feet in 4e. Only 5e has double speed, or triple for rogues. Don’t know about pre-3e movement rules.

@CapnZapp said "move", not "run". Run is indeed 3 or 4 times your speed in 3e and PF1, but it has a buch of extra restrictions (most significantly, not being able to go around corners).

_
glass.

 

[Retreater]

Is that a feat that actually exists? And either way, why would you need to check?

If it doesn't already exist it will likely exist by a year from now. But don't get hung up on the example. The point is that having exception-based rules design with a thousand exceptions to choose from (feats) where within a party you can easily have dozens to remember makes the game more difficult to run.

They are? In what way?

A lot of abilities are this way. Maybe I'm thinking about charm abilities (which saves against are counted as one step better if you're higher level than the enemy). Or the flaming sphere that allows a basic save that means no damage on a success (and not merely on a critical success like every other basic save spell).

It's little senseless exceptions like these and others that make me feel like the game is over-designed. At least for my taste.