Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

[Thomas Shey]

Ok, I thought PF2 changed that from 3e/ PF1.

Well, don't take my word for it; I've read the encounter building guidelines, but since I'm not GMing they aren't likely to have stuck perfectly, and since I did run 3e many years ago, I may have conflated them.

Yes. The more levels the more gradual the progression can be. So yes, I feel we need at least 20 levels, maybe go back to the 36 levels of BECMI!

I'm guessing from the way you've phrased this that what you mean is that you can have progression be visible but minor (since, after all, you can have very gradual progression with ten levels--it just means you'd spend a long time at any given level).

I at least understand your position now; its not something I'd go to a level based system for at all, but when in the D&D sphere, that's what you're dealing with.

We play the whole range, so I feel we need it all. I guess we could cram it all into 10 levels, but then you get to much at each level, and that is not what I want.

I might have confused you with someone else I've been talking to; someone indicated they usually bailed after 12 levels.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Both PF1 and PF2 actually make similar assumptions when it comes to encounters. The difference is the math in PF2 actually works at pretty much all levels.

So I did more or less recall it right? I wasn't sure.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Let’s just say I don’t agree with their take on sandboxes. I don’t think it’s necessary to shoehorn everything into the traditional adventure structure, and I find it a bit exasperating how the traditional structure is taken to be the natural and default form of adventures.

Its probably an inevitable mindset from a company that got their start, and still makes a lot of their hay, from selling adventures and adventure paths. It wouldn't surprise me they aren't even conscious of it.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Well, there's another issue with sandboxes that was even true in the old days; how easy is it to retreat? Alternatively, how consistent is the warning that you're getting in over your head? Without these two being handled well, even a OD&D sandbox was a deathtrap looking for a place to happen.

I want to emphasize the second point: how obvious is it that you are over your head before people start dying? There are ways for a DM to signpost this, but doing it consistently can break verisimilitude.

 

[dave2008]

I might have confused you with someone else I've been talking to; someone indicated they usually bailed after 12 levels.

yes, I think that was @payn

 

[payn]

yes, I think that was @payn

That was me in 3E/PF1 era.

 

[dave2008]

Well I thought I would post something a bit more on the topic of the OP. If / when I GM PF2, I will be allowing heal up on 5 min. rests. Not feats or skills need. I might bring in something like 4e surges (which I also think PF2 could use) to do it too. That way you have easy healing, but not unlimited healing.

 

[payn]

Well I thought I would post something a bit more on the topic of the OP. If / when I GM PF2, I will be allowing heal up on 5 min. rests. Not feats or skills need. I might bring in something like 4e surges (which I also think PF2 could use) to do it too. That way you have easy healing, but not unlimited healing.

Yeah I've been toying around with the idea that short rest gets back to full HP, but are limited per day. I miss adventuring day as the resource limiter. 4E surges were good to be in this respect.

 

[kenada]

Its probably an inevitable mindset from a company that got their start, and still makes a lot of their hay, from selling adventures and adventure paths. It wouldn't surprise me they aren't even conscious of it.

I’d actually go a step farther and suggest that there’s a fundamental assumption at play (at Paizo and beyond) that of course RPGs are about telling stories. A structure that’s meant to create them is alien and/or hard to grok. Other things can be mined for ideas, but they need to be reworked into the traditional structure, since it is better (natch). I think that’s how one gets silly claims about needing curation for a story to be meaningful. Anyway, but I digress.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I want to emphasize the second point: how obvious is it that you are over your head before people start dying? There are ways for a DM to signpost this, but doing it consistently can break verisimilitude.

Maybe so, but I can't help but think a situation where you can walk into an encounter you're extremely unlikely to be able to either win or flee without warning is going to be attractive to a downright minuscule subset of players; hard to see almost any level of verisimilitude break including outright saying "You don't want to get into this one" is worse than that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That was me in 3E/PF1 era.

Sorry, gentlefolk; I've been in a number of overlapping conversations lately.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I’d actually go a step farther and suggest that there’s a fundamental assumption at play (at Paizo and beyond) that of course RPGs are about telling stories. A structure that’s meant to create them is alien and/or hard to grok. Other things can be mined for ideas, but they need to be reworked into the traditional structure, since it is better (natch). I think that’s how one gets silly claims about needing curation for a story to be meaningful. Anyway, but I digress.

Eh, I think there's enough pushback against that in enough places its unlikely to just be taken as gospel--if they think about it at all.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Well I thought I would post something a bit more on the topic of the OP. If / when I GM PF2, I will be allowing heal up on 5 min. rests. Not feats or skills need. I might bring in something like 4e surges (which I also think PF2 could use) to do it too. That way you have easy healing, but not unlimited healing.

Note that this would likely synergize well with proficiency without level. My impression was that the Medecine skills got a bit wonky if you tried to use them in PwoL (since it assumes you will be able to reach higher DCs to heal more hp at higher levels).

 

[FrozenNorth]

Maybe so, but I can't help but think a situation where you can walk into an encounter you're extremely unlikely to be able to either win or flee without warning is going to be attractive to a downright minuscule subset of players; hard to see almost any level of verisimilitude break including outright saying "You don't want to get into this one" is worse than that.

I tend to think that both are pretty bad. Sure, if you give me a choice between two bad options, I will choose the least bad one, but I won’t be happy.

 

[kenada]

Note that this would likely synergize well with proficiency without level. My impression was that the Medecine skills got a bit wonky if you tried to use them in PwoL (since it assumes you will be able to reach higher DCs to heal more hp at higher levels).

Pretty much anything that specifies the DC will need to be recalibrated when switching to Proficiency without Level. Since they more or less follow the simple DC chart, it’s generally easy enough to switch them over to whatever simple DC scale you’re using with PWL.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Incidentally I tend to handle those kinds of 'breaks' in verisimilitude by building them into the fiction, lots of cohesive and beloved fantasy worlds today let their residents sense relative level of power, they can feel when they're out of their league and react accordingly. Can't break your immersion if its part of your immersion.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I tend to think that both are pretty bad. Sure, if you give me a choice between two bad options, I will choose the least bad one, but I won’t be happy.

That's fair, but the only third option is to curate encounters in some way, and that tends to be counter to the ethic of a sandbox (and potentially create its own problems later on in a longer campaign). Sometimes the two pieces of rope just don't meet in the middle.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Incidentally I tend to handle those kinds of 'breaks' in verisimilitude by building them into the fiction, lots of cohesive and beloved fantasy worlds today let their residents sense relative level of power, they can feel when they're out of their league and react accordingly. Can't break your immersion if its part of your immersion.

The big issue is that you either need to already perceive the opponent (in which case it may be too late) or else it functions as a detect danger power which not everyone is gonna want.

 

[kenada]

The big issue is that you either need to already perceive the opponent (in which case it may be too late) or else it functions as a detect danger power which not everyone is gonna want.

This reminds me of the time my paladin used detect evil as a range finder when a flying creature came for us. I can’t remember why we wanted to wait until it was close, but I knew it would be within 60′ once my detect evil pinged.

 

[MaskedGuy]

Ok, I thought PF2 changed that from 3e/ PF1.

To elaborate, equal level creature to party is worth 40 xp in budget. Single of them is trivial encounter (encounter players defeat easily), two of them is moderate (puts up some fight and spends resources, but still unlikely for players to lose unless they are severely weakened), three of them is severe encounter (capable of kicking player ass, but players probably win unless they play badly) and four of them is extreme. (likely tpk if party isn't at full resources and playing well. Though of course using weaker mook combinations for extreme encounters are easier than extreme soloboss, such as them being easily destroyed with fireballs and such, in conditions like them starting surrounding PCs they can be still about as equally dangerous as there is likely to be someone squishy in the party).