Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e Newbie with questions.

[fjw70]

I guess I don’t see it as being a clumsy description. i think the keys words are more confusing and clumsy. But that’s me. YMMV.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess I don’t see it as being a clumsy description. i think the keys words are more confusing and clumsy. But that’s me. YMMV.

Different people see things differently, but I've got to say for all its problems, I think PF2e is a hell of a lot clearer on this topic (hidden opponents) than D&D3.5 was at least, and clearer than most games I'm familiar with.

 

[fjw70]

Not to be all negative I do like a lot of the things I see with PF2. I am very intrigued by the three action economy and I really like the different degrees of success/failure on things like saves.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Hey, what bothers you bothers you man. I don't even really hold the things that some PF1e fans dislike about PF2e against them, and some of them are expectations that I don't think do good things for a game on the whole.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Not to be all negative I do like a lot of the things I see with PF2. I am very intrigued by the three action economy and I really like the different degrees of success/failure on things like saves.

It's no problem. I've been trying to think up better wording for that situation for a while and it's just very difficult without getting wordy because it's easy to quickly understand how the situations are different, but hard to give one-word keywords that don't somehow overlap with other words you might use. Like, if you change it to be "Undetected" and "Detected", that becomes weird when you think of the idea of "Hidden" in that regard.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's no problem. I've been trying to think up better wording for that situation for a while and it's just very difficult without getting wordy because it's easy to quickly understand how the situations are different, but hard to give one-word keywords that don't somehow overlap with other words you might use. Like, if you change it to be "Undetected" and "Detected", that becomes weird when you think of the idea of "Hidden" in that regard.

Its not the first complaint I've seen directed at that rules subsection, either. I've just seen too many other games where the handling of that was muddy as can be to hold it against them that they decided to have different terms for the three situations.

 

[Yaarel]

They are two very different states, the problem is that there isn't really a good terminology to distinguish them. Unnoticed is that no one suspects anyone is there. Undetected is that you know something is there, but you have no clue where it is. Hidden is that you have a rough idea of where something is, and observed is that you know where it is.

Unnoticed: "I'm alone in the room."

Undetected: "I am not alone in the room."

Hidden: "There is someone behind the boxes over there."

Observed: "I can see someone behind the blue box over there."

These are important distinctions.

• Perfect stealth
• Something is off − Spidey sense is tingling − odd sound − I think we arent alone
• I can narrow down the location
• I plainly see the stealther

I agree the nomenclature is difficult to convey the distinctions.

Personally, I would have used the term "undetected" for perfect stealth.

Then for the Spidey sense, maybe use the term "alarming". So the stealther is still unlocated but people are now on alert.

If I understand, the Detect Magic spell is more like Spidey tingling, you know magic is present, but no idea where?

Is narrowing down the location, similar to an "imprecise sense", like the sense of smell?




These are helpful distinctions, conceptually.

Is there something similar for illusion checks?

• No clue that an illusion is happening
• Something seems "not quite right"
• It is an illusion, but unsure what the truth is
• No longer see the illusion, or else clearly distinguish between illusion and truth.

 

[glass]

Personally, I think Paizo should have done it first, so they could have built on its better text instead of what they released for the Core Rulebook.

I suspect that the better wording in the BB (I am taking your word for it that it is actually better, as I have not looked at it) is a result of their having written it once before in the CRB (or in some cases possibly twice before counting the playtest).

They are two very different states, the problem is that there isn't really a good terminology to distinguish them. Unnoticed is that no one suspects anyone is there. Undetected is that you know something is there, but you have no clue where it is. Hidden is that you have a rough idea of where something is, and observed is that you know where it is.

The only problem I can see with it is that Undetected is severely misnamed. It should be "Detected" without the "Un"!

 

[kenada]

I suspect that the better wording in the BB (I am taking your word for it that it is actually better, as I have not looked at it) is a result of their having written it once before in the CRB (or in some cases possibly twice before counting the playtest).

I suspect it’s also due to trying to write for a younger/different audience. That audience should have been the default. Even older or experienced players are helped by having easy to read and parse rules. As for the text itself, see below.

The hide status stuff is baked into the Hide and Sneak actions in the Beginner Box (see below). Compare to the version of Hide and Sneak from the CRB. The conditions used by the core rules are meant to accommodate different senses and expansion, but they read like a soup of jargon.

Hide (1 Action)
[ Secret ]
You huddle behind cover or deeper into concealment to hide yourself. You must have standard cover or have the concealed condition to Hide, and you gain any circumstance bonus from standard cover to your Stealth check. Lesser cover isn’t sufficient to Hide. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re trying to Hide from.

Success The creature can’t see you. If it could see you before, it still knows roughly your position until you Sneak (see below) to move elsewhere. If it tries to target you while it can’t see you and only knows your position, it has to succeed at a DC 10 flat check or it fails to target you.
Failure The creature can still see you.

Sneak (1 Action)
[ Move ] [ Secret ]
When you’ve successfully hidden from someone using Hide, you can Sneak to move to another place so they don’t know where you are. Stride up to half your Speed. At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result of the Perception DC of each creature that couldn’t see you but knew where you were at the start of your movement. If you have standard cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Stealth check. You can roll against a creature only if, at the end of your Stride, you have standard cover or the concealed condition; otherwise, it sees you.

Success The creature can’t see or hear you during your movement and doesn’t know where you are after you stop moving.
Failure A telltale sound or other sign gives your position away. The creature still can’t see you, but it knows where you are.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! The creature can see you.

What happens when you stop sneaking is baked into the Sneak action in the core rules, but it’s a separate sidebar in the Beginner Box.

Ending Stealth
You stop being hidden from a creature if you move to a place where you no longer have cover from it, or if you use any actions other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. A creature you’re hidden from has the flat-footed condition against you, taking a −2 circumstance penalty to AC against your attacks. If you attempt to Strike the creature, it has the flat-footed condition against that one attack, but then it sees you.

Creatures can use the Seek action to try to find you, as described (later in the Beginner Box Hero’s Handbook). If they find you, you have to successfully Hide again to become hidden once more.

Invisibility
If you’re invisible (due to the invisibility wizard spell, for instance), you can’t be seen. You get the benefit of a successful check to Hide all the time. That means if anything would let a creature see you (like critically failing a check to Sneak), the creature knows where you are but can’t see you. You can Sneak while invisible without needing to Hide first.

This is how I would phrase things. I try to use the conditions naturally rather than just saying you gain them. I also rely on the system’s structure for presenting actions and the tags and assume that the opposite of “undetected” is “detected”. A secret action implicitly says the GM rolls, so it doesn’t need to be repeated. It clutters the text to include those instructions every time. I would also keep the stuff on losing your conditions in a separate sidebar. It really hurts clarity having it crammed in after the results (especially if you’re using some other action that gives you those conditions and need to look up the information in that sidebar).

Hide (1 Action)
[ Secret ]
Requirements: You must have standard cover, greater cover, or the concealed condition.
You huddle behind cover or deeper into concealment to hide yourself. You gain any circumstance bonus from cover to your Stealth check. The result of your Stealth check is compared to the Perception DC of each creature you are trying to Hide from.

Success If the creature could observe you, you are now hidden from it. If you were already hidden or undetected, you remain so.
Failure The creature can still observe you.

Sneak
[ Move ] [ Secret ]
Requirements: You are hidden or undetected.
You attempt to move to another place undetected. Stride up to half your speed. You may instead use another form of movement if you have that (such as Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming), but you still must move no more than half your speed. The result of your Stealth check is compared to the Perception DC of each creature that could possibly observe or detect you. This check is automatically a critical failure if you do not meet the requirements to Hide at the end of your movement. If it is impossible for a creature to observe you, a critical failure becomes just a failure.

Success You are undetected by the creature during your movement and at the end of your movement.
Failure You give away your position. If you were undetected before trying to Sneak, you no longer are to the creature. You remain hidden during and at the end of your movement.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! The creature observes you during and at the end of your movement.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

I do wish there were a lighter version of the game that had the same core mechanics.

The Beginner's Box does exactly this, by paring down the game to three ancestries, 4 classes, and providing prebuilt leveling which makes it a very ideal entry point for new players.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The Beginner's Box does exactly this, by paring down the game to three ancestries, 4 classes, and providing prebuilt leveling which makes it a very ideal entry point for new players.

The classic four classes, human, elf and dwarf I'm assuming?

 

[Velderan]

The classic four classes, human, elf and dwarf I'm assuming?

Yep!

Dwarf, Elf, Human for ancestries.
Acolyte, Criminal, Deckhand, Farmhand, Gambler, Scholar, Warrior for backgrounds.
Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard for classes.

They also present some of the basic actions you can take on a handout (Drop Prone, Interact, Leap, Seek, Stand, Step, Stride, Strike). Pretty basic game as presented in the Beginner Box.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

The classic four classes, human, elf and dwarf I'm assuming?

Correct. Very traditional (for better or worse).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Correct. Very traditional (for better or worse).

Well, it is a basic box set, in a game that's a clear offshoot of the D&D line.

 

[dave2008]

Yep!

Dwarf, Elf, Human for ancestries.
Acolyte, Criminal, Deckhand, Farmhand, Gambler, Scholar, Warrior for backgrounds.
Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard for classes.

They also present some of the basic actions you can take on a handout (Drop Prone, Interact, Leap, Seek, Stand, Step, Stride, Strike). Pretty basic game as presented in the Beginner Box.

I should consider getting that. I bought the CRB, Bestiarty, and GMG when the came out - but nothing sense. And those books were just to dense for me to grasp it will on quick read-through.

 

[Velderan]

I should consider getting that. I bought the CRB, Bestiarty, and GMG when the came out - but nothing sense. And those books were just to dense for me to grasp it will on quick read-through.

The adventure that comes with it is a basic dungeon with different rooms featuring a different mechanic in the game to help teach a GM new to the system how to resolve a situation. I think it does a lot to address some of the complaints I've seen made about the various 5e starter sets not really doing a good job teaching the game. The story is pretty basic too, though it does a good enough job setting up the PCs to make friends in Otari.

Spoiler: Menace under Otari plot hook

Some fish in the lower level of a fishery have recently starting disappearing, go investigate!

As an added bonus, the Foundry version of the Beginner Box is clearly aimed at people new to both PF2e and Foundry, providing explanations on how to resolve the mechanics in Foundry. As the module's target audience, I really appreciated that.

Worth mentioning the follow-up adventure Troubles in Otari is written to be played off the Beginner Box rules also so you can get to level 4 or 5 before needing to worry about the full ruleset if you want.

 

[Kichwas]

None of them has played it and they don’t seem interested in learning a new system. I don’t think it had anything to do with the system itself. but to be fair what I have seen if PF2 it will take quite a learning curve to get up to speed on it. It is quite crunchy.

At least one of the players doesn’t want to move away from DND Beyond.

My group is the opposite dynamic. Of course I'm on the "other side" of the OGL fiasco from when you posted the above, and maybe by the time I catch up in the thread you will have been in a different place. Especially given the note about DnD Begone.

I recently joined a group that was starting into PF2E. They were a D&D5E group and the GM wanted to try out PF2E. Maybe because of the OGL thing or maybe just in genera; (he seemed way to prepared to have just recently decided to try it, but then again Foundry is such a good VTT that a smart GM could be up to speed in days for the transition over).

Two of their players were not joining the PF2E game. I have no idea why. Never asked. But it meant he went out to recruit 2 people and I made the cut (he interviewed a lot of folks, invited some of us into his discord to hang around for a few days, and then made choices. I'm not the "best gamer" out there but I can tell my temperament fits theirs - which is more important, having people on a similar vibe).

By the end of session 2 him and all his existing players decided to kill their D&D game and open up more space for the PF2E game. I suspect that if me and the other new person hadn't been available on the other day, they would have decided to run two games.

They were all essentially shocked at how much easier it was to handle all the 'crunch' in PF2E than it had been for them in D&D5E. Maybe that's the VTTs, maybe it's the system. They have both Foundry and Fantasy Grounds and some experience with Roll20. PF2E's implementation in Foundry is just a game changer. It is so well done and so well supported (without added cost - no need to rebuy all your books) that the game just 'vanishes' underneath and you're left with your enjoyment of the experience. They told me D&D5E was a hassle to get running in Foundry, and that their impression was Fantasy Grounds was not aging well. I personally have mild PTSD from my attempts to use Roll20...

So the trick...

Is just to get people to manage to sit down for a playtest. But to make sure you have good tools in place for that test. If they had done their test in Roll20 they'd have run screaming for the hills...

 

[Kichwas]

I should consider getting that. I bought the CRB, Bestiarty, and GMG when the came out - but nothing sense. And those books were just to dense for me to grasp it will on quick read-through.

There's a Humble Bundle out for a few more days that gives you that plus a ton of other stuff (retail around $422) for $25. All PDFs though, not print books. BUT still extremely worth it.

(I had about half the stuff already in print - so for me the value was that each PDF is normally just under $20, but this gave me all of them for $25. Now that I'm a PF2E fanatic, I got their subscription so my future PDFs will be free additions to the print books they ship me - which I'm getting for less than my soon to be cancelled WoW sub).

 

[dave2008]

There's a Humble Bundle out for a few more days that gives you that plus a ton of other stuff (retail around $422) for $25. All PDFs though, not print books. BUT still extremely worth it.

(I had about half the stuff already in print - so for me the value was that each PDF is normally just under $20, but this gave me all of them for $25. Now that I'm a PF2E fanatic, I got their subscription so my future PDFs will be free additions to the print books they ship me - which I'm getting for less than my soon to be cancelled WoW sub).

I already have the CRB, GMG, and Bestiary. I don't use published adventures, so I don't think the bundle is for me. The only thing I am think of picking up is the beginner's box.

 

[glass]

I already have the CRB, GMG, and Bestiary. I don't use published adventures, so I don't think the bundle is for me. The only thing I am think of picking up is the beginner's box.

It is cheaper to get one of the lower levels than to buy the PDF of the beginner's box on its own. By quite a lot.