Pathfinder 2E's New Death & Dying Rules; More on Resonance

It's another day, and that means another round of Pathfinder 2nd Edition News! Today's menu includes more discussion on resonance, followed by the main course -- the new rules for death & dying! All added, as ever, to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

Photo by Paizo

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• There are Pathfinder Playtest pro-order posters at the GAMA trade show. See above! And below...
• Gnome Stew reported on the Future of Pathfinder seminar at Gary Con. Mainly stuff we've heard before, but there are some new tidbits:
  • Shadow of the Demon Lord, white-box D&D, Magic: the Gathering, Tales from the Loop, and Star Trek Adventures were all referenced during development.
  • The item (shield) damage system has a name -- it's called "dented".
  • Some "signature gear" can level up with your character.
  • "Background will grant a specific Lore, which is similar to a specialized knowledge skill, such as Lore—Alcohol being granted to a character with barkeep as a background".
• Resonance proved divisive yesterday.
  • Jason Bulmahn weighed in on the heated discussion -- "Hey there all! Let's all just take a breath here before things get too heated. Resonance is a system that we knew was going to come with some controversy. It's really hard to give you a full sense of what the system allows us to do with the design space without going on a deep dive on magic items. This is a topic we are going to hit soon, so hang in there. I will say this before I go to run more demos at GAMA. Players have rarely run out of resonance in our games, and there is a lot more healing to go around than you might think."
  • Class features don't use Resonance -- "We avoided making class features that use Resonance Points unless they're directly tied to items. Resonance is a resource for items thematically and specifically. If you have abilities from a bloodline, you'll have to pay for those some other way..." (Bonner)
  • "...we've had some delightful occultist-based thought experiments based on some of these ideas as the "kings of resonance."[FONT=&amp] (Seifter)[/FONT]
  • Bulmahn commented -- "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."
• New Dying Rules! "RumpinRufus" reported on how they worked in the live streamed game at the GAMA trade show:
  • There are no negative hit points - if you take damage equal or greater than your HP, you go down to 0 HP and get the Dying 1 condition.
  • If a crit knocks you to 0, you gain Dying 2 instead of Dying 1.
  • Each round, you must make a save to stabilize. The save DC is based off the enemy - a boss may have a higher death DC than a mook, so you are more likely to be killed by bosses.
  • If you reach Dying 4, then you are dead.
  • If you make the stabilize check, you gain a hit point, but are still Dying. If you make another save at 1 HP, you are no longer Dying, and you regain consciousness.
  • If an ally heals you while you are Dying, you still have the Dying condition, even though you have positive HP. You still need to make a stabilize check to regain consciousness. But, once your HP is positive, you are no longer at danger of death from failing your checks - failing a stabilize check just means you stay unconscious.
  • The Stabilize cantrip puts you at 1 HP.
  • Mark Seifter further added -- "If you get well and truly annihilated by an attack, you die instantly. Even a 1st PC could probably insta-kill a kobold grandmother, even if the GM chose for full tracking of unconscious and dying NPCs."
• Erik Mona on monster books again, and how self-contained stat blocks will be -- "I don't think we've fully committed one way or the other yet. The playtest monster book is going to be mega stat block dump without a lot of description of what, say, a skeleton looks like or eats. As for special abilities and how they're formatted, while I know the design team has been hard at work on this stuff, I haven't interacted with it too much yet (I just finished going through magic items last night!)."
• Both Erik Mona and James Jacobs feel strongly about the presence of more outsider types on the summoning lists -- "No, actually, James Jacobs and I also feel very strongly about this. Very strongly."
• Logan Bonner comments on complexity, options, and the 'cognitive load' -- "We're keeping it in mind for sure. That's one reason we've rejiggered the number of bonus types, altered the action economy to make choice clearer, and (at least mostly) made it so you have options for static feats instead of only giving options to expand your list of actions. We'll see in the playtest whether that mix is right."
• Logan Bonner informs us that coffee and tea have been added to the Playtest Rulebook.
• Mark Seifter on how corruption could work "...gaining a corruption could unlock a new set of ancestry feats, as your fundamental nature has shifted."

Photo by Paizo
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[The Crimson Binome]

In 5e PCs do not actually get hit by Ogre clubs which is why they can fully recover over night and why they can walk it off between fights. If you were using the 5e mechanics to tell the correct story then you would not be suffering from such severe cognitive dissonance right now.

If you roll to check whether the ogre hits you with his club, and the check says that the ogre has successfully hit you with his club, and your conclusion is that that the ogre didn't actually hit you with his club, then you need to get your story straight.

The reason why 5E uses narrative handwave HP is because they make for less bookkeeping in gameplay, rather than because they make for a better story. A reasonable story that involves a group of heroes fighting an ogre should at least include the possibility of the ogre hitting someone without killing them outright, but the game mechanics omit that as a possible outcome; the game mechanics only allow that you were killed, or that the ogre didn't actually hit you.

You know I have never ever seen a story where people dont get given healing potions unless they are already dead and never ever seen a story where someone does not heal from a healing potion.

I can't remember reading a story where healing potions were used on someone who hasn't actually been hit yet, because that would be a non-sensical story, which is the result of trying to play 5E straight. Most often, healing potions in stories are used on people who have been physically injured (but not killed), and the healing potion cures them of that physical injury.

I mean how does a character even know that the healing potion is not going to do anything for them? There is no way for them to tell without the totally gamist mechanic of the Player knowing how many resonance points they have left to spend.

If the mechanics of the game actually reflect the reality of the game world - which is the basic assumption of how role-playing games work - then the characters would absolutely know that their ability to use magical items was tied to their willpower and personal magical strength. Characters can obviously see the reality which corresponds to Resonance, just like they can tell how much HP damage they've taken by looking at their injuries (in Pathfinder, or most other RPGs, if not in 5E).

 

[Lanefan]

Nobody is stupid enough to drink a healing potion if they know it's not going to do anything.

True, if you've reason to think it won't work. Using this example...

What does happen in stories is that characters are injured to the point where magical healing can't help them anymore

...it's easy in this case for a player-as-PC to think the wounds are more than a potion can handle. But if you're down 30 out of 75 hit points (which in 4e terms means you're not even bloodied yet) and want to knock back a potion to top up a bit, you've no reason on earth to think you're hurt badly enough that a potion can't help you; and so you down the potion, and nothing happens because you've used up all your magic resonance for the day.

so it's nice that we might actually have to deal with something like that in-game.

Yes, so bring in that mechanic! Bring in a body point/fatigue point system where maybe body points can't be healed by simple potions.

Something I'm picking up here is that an awful lot of the talk about Resonance is focusing strictly on healing - potions of curing, wands of CLW, etc. It's going to hammer offensive magic from devices as well, depending how many passive items one has to power up in the morning. It'll also clobber activated devices of detection or divination, which IME can get used quite a lot in exploration and info-gathering situations.

You heal 1x CON Mod HP when you rest, by the way. That came up in the podcast.

Overnight rest, or a shorter rest?

If all you get for an overnight rest is your Con modifier in h.p. we're back to 1e days - love it! Of course, it'll really suck if your Con modifier is 0; and if it's -1 does that mean you wake up less healthy than when you went to sleep?

I could get behind an overnight rest getting you back [level + Con mod] where "level" is your highest level in any one class (specifically to penalize multiclassers - I'm evil that way!) and "Con mod" is the greater of your Constitution modifier or 1. So by this a 4th level single-class character would get back at least 5 h.p.

Lanefan

 

[Charlaquin]

If you roll to check whether the ogre hits you with his club, and the check says that the ogre has successfully hit you with his club, and your conclusion is that that the ogre didn't actually hit you with his club, then you need to get your story straight.

You're getting too caught up on the word "hit." The DM makes a check to see if the ogre's attempt to reduce your ability to stay in the fight was successful. The ogre does not need to hit you with his club to successfully reduce your ability to stay in the fight. It certainly can be narrated that way, but that's not the only way to narrate it.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

True, if you've reason to think it won't work. Using this example...
...it's easy in this case for a player-as-PC to think the wounds are more than a potion can handle. But if you're down 30 out of 75 hit points (which in 4e terms means you're not even bloodied yet) and want to knock back a potion to top up a bit, you've no reason on earth to think you're hurt badly enough that a potion can't help you; and so you down the potion, and nothing happens because you've used up all your magic resonance for the day.

If the game world actually works the way that the rules describe, then the characters should know that it's based on how much of their personal magical energy they've invested that day, rather than how bad their wounds are. It's a similar situation to what happens in stories, but not quite the same. You can still have a scenario where you wake up from near-death, drink six potions, and then go back to rest because the potions can't help you anymore.

If all you get for an overnight rest is your Con modifier in h.p. we're back to 1e days - love it! Of course, it'll really suck if your Con modifier is 0; and if it's -1 does that mean you wake up less healthy than when you went to sleep?

Presumably there's a caveat giving a minimum of 1 per day, although this is already a bad sign that Constitution is going to be the omni-stat that everyone is forced to invest in. You see the same thing in 5E, where the rules just naturally assume everyone ever will have an above-average Con score.

 

[Shasarak]

If you roll to check whether the ogre hits you with his club, and the check says that the ogre has successfully hit you with his club, and your conclusion is that that the ogre didn't actually hit you with his club, then you need to get your story straight.

If your story was correct that the Ogre did hit you with his club then you obviously would not be able to recover fully from just resting overnight. So then if you can recover from a nights rest then obviously your narrative about being hit by an ogres club must have been wrong.

The reason why 5E uses narrative handwave HP is because they make for less bookkeeping in gameplay, rather than because they make for a better story. A reasonable story that involves a group of heroes fighting an ogre should at least include the possibility of the ogre hitting someone without killing them outright, but the game mechanics omit that as a possible outcome; the game mechanics only allow that you were killed, or that the ogre didn't actually hit you.

Sorry man, but I have seen an edition that narrated everything in game mechanics and I cant do that again. If you think that Dieing 2/3/4 tells a better story then you just have to find someone else to sneak you into Burma.

I can't remember reading a story where healing potions were used on someone who hasn't actually been hit yet, because that would be a non-sensical story, which is the result of trying to play 5E straight. Most often, healing potions in stories are used on people who have been physically injured (but not killed), and the healing potion cures them of that physical injury.

I was under the impression that Healing Potions always worked in 5e, is that not the case?

If the mechanics of the game actually reflect the reality of the game world - which is the basic assumption of how role-playing games work - then the characters would absolutely know that their ability to use magical items was tied to their willpower and personal magical strength. Characters can obviously see the reality which corresponds to Resonance, just like they can tell how much HP damage they've taken by looking at their injuries (in Pathfinder, or most other RPGs, if not in 5E).

I am not sure that I entirely approve of Characters talking like they can actually see their character sheet, that just breaks too much of the 4th wall for me I am afraid.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You're getting too caught up on the word "hit." The DM makes a check to see if the ogre's attempt to reduce your ability to stay in the fight was successful. The ogre does not need to hit you with his club to successfully reduce your ability to stay in the fight. It certainly can be narrated that way, but that's not the only way to narrate it.

Which is a bunch of handwavium to try and dance around the fact that characters can survive so many hits, which is only the case because not dying as quickly makes for slightly more-interesting gameplay.

Given how simplistic the model is, there's no narrative-vased reason for quantifying abstract things like "ability to stay in the fight" rather than definitive traits such as "how injured you are"; and honestly, the fact that 5E tracks only the former, and has no way to track the latter, is a serious deficiency in its mechanics.

 

[Charlaquin]

Overnight rest, or a shorter rest?

They just called it a "rest," there was no qualifying language about the length of said rest. Though it was clear that they were resting overnight.

If all you get for an overnight rest is your Con modifier in h.p. we're back to 1e days - love it! Of course, it'll really suck if your Con modifier is 0; and if it's -1 does that mean you wake up less healthy than when you went to sleep?

Sorry, I mistyped. They regained level x Con mod HP, minimum of 1 HP. Their level just happened to be 1. That does raise the question though of if characters with +0 or lower in their Con only ever gain 1 HP per rest while their companions' rate of healing is increasing as they level.

I could get behind an overnight rest getting you back [level + Con mod] where "level" is your highest level in any one class (specifically to penalize multiclassers - I'm evil that way!) and "Con mod" is the greater of your Constitution modifier or 1. So by this a 4th level single-class character would get back at least 5 h.p.

Lanefan

I assume the intent is that it's multiplied by total character level.

 

[Charlaquin]

Which is a bunch of handwavium to try and dance around the fact that characters can survive so many hits, which is only the case because not dying as quickly makes for slightly more-interesting gameplay.

That, and the fact that characters somehow become able to survive more hits as they gain experience. But yes.

Given how simplistic the model is, there's no narrative-vased reason for quantifying abstract things like "ability to stay in the fight" rather than definitive traits such as "how injured you are";

How injured you are isn't really any more quantifiable than how willing you are to fight. Unless you want to measure it in like... litres of blood in your body or something, but that'd be a really poor indicator of injury.

and honestly, the fact that 5E tracks only the former, and has no way to track the latter, is a serious deficiency in its mechanics.

5E does track the latter. They're called failed death saving throws.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I was under the impression that Healing Potions always worked in 5e, is that not the case?

Healing potions in 5E only cure HP damage, which is a problem because (as you mentioned) HP damage doesn't correspond to physical injury in 5E. If someone is down 10hp out of their 30hp total, then they're perfectly fine and definitely not injured in any way, so they have no reason to drink a potion that is supposed to heal physical injury. Instead, 5E healing potions are basically Gatorade, in that they'll refresh someone who is basically still okay, but they have no effect on someone who is actually injured (because the only way to suffer injury in 5E is if you're dead).

I am not sure that I entirely approve of Characters talking like they can actually see their character sheet, that just breaks too much of the 4th wall for me I am afraid.

Characters don't talk about Resonance and HP. Characters talk about the in-game realities which are reflected by the Resonance and HP mechanics.

The players may end up talking about Resonance and HP, rather than the in-game realities which those rules reflect, if the rules are too fuzzy to figure out the correlation between the two. For example, if the rules say that HP corresponds to physical injury, then the players can talk about that physical injury rather than saying they're low on HP; but if HP is just handwavium that doesn't correspond to anything in the game world, then the players are forced to talk about them as HP because they have no alternative.

 

[Charlaquin]

Healing potions in 5E only cure HP damage, which is a problem because (as you mentioned) HP damage doesn't correspond to physical injury in 5E. If someone is down 10hp out of their 30hp total, then they're perfectly fine and definitely not injured in any way, so they have no reason to drink a potion that is supposed to heal physical injury. Instead, 5E healing potions are basically Gatorade, in that they'll refresh someone who is basically still okay, but they have no effect on someone who is actually injured (because the only way to suffer injury in 5E is if you're dead).

Really, they should have swapped the names of healing potions and potions of vitality in 5e. Healing potions restore your vitality (hp) and potions of vitality restore your health (exhaustion levels).