Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E's reception?

[BryonD]

It seems you aren't even trying to make a cogent argument.

Are you denying that 5E is diverse? (please, go ahead and say yes)
Ad popular is one thing, but demonstrating a meaningful connection that maintains critical context here is a failure on your point. Just looking up "logical fallacy" on wikipedia does not make your argument valid.

Seriously, every reply you presented here actively changes the context and meaning of what YOU said previously. Clearly you can't defend your own points.

This thread is about PF2E's "reception" that ties directly to popularity.
For the god-only-knows time I'll repeat that I totally endorse your love of 4E style play. Your lack of understanding what exactly I have the priveledge of demanding from a game does not qualify you to proclaim that 4E delivers when I know it does not. It only makes you a gatekeeper who requires me to see what YOU want in place of what I want.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It seems you aren't even trying to make a cogent argument.

What would that argument be? I'm just pointing out that statements and arguments others have thrown out as if they were incontrovertibly true are actually resting entirely on logical fallacies. That's not me making an argument, at all, it's you & Zard &c making really bad arguments.

Are you denying that 5E is diverse?

Perhaps ironically, even as 5e has demonstrably failed in it's 'Big Tent' for fans of all past editions playtest promise, it's gone right ahead and accepted diversity in terms of broader social issues. Which is one way it definitely hasn't reverted to 70s D&D. No return of % STR maxima - even joking about it in the playtest drew appropriate ire - or anything, and the same sort of representations of diversity you finally see on TV these days.

"logical fallacy" does not make your argument valid.

True, it just makes yours invalid.

This thread is about PF2E's "reception" that ties directly to popularity.

That it's drifted has occurred to me, too. It didn't start out about 4e, either.

It's just that the 'reception' in terms of popularity isn't proof that there's anything wrong with PF2, nor even that it's not as good - or much better - as a game, than 5e.
That's something people who get around to actually understanding & playing it can make judgements about.
(Though, the overwhelming relative popularity of 5e has a bearing on how likely you are to actually pull a group together and get to do that.)

 

[BryonD]

That it's drifted has occurred to me, too. It didn't start out about 4e, either.

It's just that the 'reception' in terms of popularity isn't proof that there's anything wrong with PF2, nor even that it's not as good - or much better - as a game, than 5e.
That's something people who get around to actually understanding & playing it can make judgements about.
(Though, the overwhelming relative popularity of 5e has a bearing on how likely you are to actually pull a group together and get to do that.)

4E is a pretty good object lesson.

But, again you are anointing yourself with the authority to speak for my knowledge.
If you have to deal with facts, your position collapses. If you can make up things about other people as you go along then you can pretend to still have a point.

If you could have actually undermined my points, then that would have happened years ago.
That did not happen. What did happen is that my predictions played out.
So there you go.

Please feel free to continue speaking for me, any reasonable reader will see that for exactly what it is worth.

 

[Tony Vargas]

4E is a pretty good object lesson.

the rest of that post made no sense at all, but on this bit we can agree.

The edition war illustrated that even D&D doesn't have industry dominance enough for it's IP holder to just do whatever they want. In a sense, as a game, it's a victim of it's own success, but, more importantly, as a brand, it can leverage that success. There are just certain lines it has to color w/in. 4e colored outside them.

When PF1 was taking advantage of that lapse, it got to gain some market share by coloring inside those same lines. Now that D&D is compliant and has reclaimed it's traditional place, Paizo is actually free to color outside the lines again.

PF2 can't possibly end up as successful a product as D&D or PF1, but it might well turn out a much better game - only those who try it (with an open mind) will find out.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Can we goddamn stop edition warring in this thread.

 

[BryonD]

Can we goddamn stop edition warring in this thread.

FWIW, you are seeing a preview of the future. Ignore the fans who were set aside now and blame them later.

 

[JeffB]

This may have been my fault as the convo steered towards 4E. For that I apologize.

Lets get back on track- PF1 and PF2 are a different situation and are occurring with different market forces driving(and hindering) things than 5E and 4E- though the situation may end up very similar between the respective fans.

 

[Aldarc]

FWIW, you are seeing a preview of the future. Ignore the fans who were set aside now and blame them later.

How exactly were you set aside in PF2? Or is this just you dramatically posturing yourself as some sort of victim? I'm honestly puzzled by your attitude.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Lets get back on track- PF1 and PF2 are a different situation and are occurring with different market forces driving(and hindering) things

The situation is different from 3.5 to 4e roll, of course, but PF2 is still following PF1, which is a refurbished 3.5 with more miles on it. And, since it cant just regress to appeal to nostalgia - there's more than enough OSR games out there, sweeping up any crumbs left by 5e - the only thing to do was try to address PF1s intractable faults and build a better game. Necessarily, a quite different game.
So the design challenge may have been similar.

 

[JeffB]

Not taking into account 5e or D&D the brand at all and speaking strictly PF-

Just how much more material could they have produced for PF1? Certainly adventures/PFS but what were they up to- AP #20 or so? ( @ 6 volumes each?). That would put a serious damper on creativity because all these "world shaking" AP events were occurring, but Golarion remained stuck in whatever the current year was when RotRL came out, IIRC.

But they also had to be creatively at the very end for rules additions. I think there has to be so much material for PF1 between the company itself and the masses of 3rd party material that it had nowhere to go in the grand scheme of things. As designers, struggling with the legacy rule issues they admit to PF1 having, it had to be incredibly frustrating as well- and who can keep their creativity up for 10 years working on a system that is working against you and what you want to do. Tough situation- Fans keep clamoring for more more more- but as your job day in and day out- ugh.I wouldn't want to be in that situation at all.