Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

Gryffyn · Mar 20, 2008

Good points about the dangers of changing too much. Backwards compatibility *should* be an effective brake on that, I hope.

That being said, the Pathfinder rules for turning undead are so much better than 3.5's that I want to marry them.

EricNoah · Mar 20, 2008

On the other hand I'm a little concerned about Rebuke Undead being used to damage living opponents. (Don't have the document handy but that's what I remember...)

Geron Raveneye · Mar 20, 2008

Greg K said:
As soon as I got to the skills system, I lost interest and skimmed the rest. Removal of skill points is an automatic deal breaker as it was for me with Blue Rose, Star Wars, and 4e. However, I did see a couple of new house rules- one of which I had been considering for a rogue class variant, but had not tried out in play. And, of course, it was free.

Just saying that you can use the standard skill system easily by "renaming" # of skill choices to #of skill points/level. All you have to remember is to multiply x4 at 1st level. The numbers are the same, the current Alpha system is a shortcut for auto-maxed skills with a little bonus of more skills in 20 levels on top.

Pseudopsyche · Mar 20, 2008

EricNoah said:
On the other hand I'm a little concerned about Rebuke Undead being used to damage living opponents. (Don't have the document handy but that's what I remember...)

Yes, evil clerics can deal (level/2+1)d6 damage to all living creatures within a 30-ft burst (save for half) while simultaneously healing his undead minions an equal amount, 3+(cha mod) times per day.

Remember, kill the cleric first!

(And hope the DM doesn't replace one level n cleric with two level (n-2) clerics, or worse....)

On the plus side, it looks like Rebuking Undead also damages the evil cleric, too. Well, unless the cleric is also undead.

Lonely Tylenol · Mar 20, 2008

I can't be the only one who looked at all the free spells wizards get (Universal: Wish 1/day, Limited Wish 1/day as spell-like abilities), and thought "Hmm... what do they trade off for this? Hmm...nothing? Oh dear."

Wizards are already the most powerful class in 3.5. They don't need a bunch of free stuff, no matter how many dead levels you need to fill.

Gryffyn · Mar 20, 2008

Dr. Awkward said:
I can't be the only one who looked at all the free spells wizards get (Universal: Wish 1/day, Limited Wish 1/day as spell-like abilities), and thought "Hmm... what do they trade off for this? Hmm...nothing? Oh dear."

Wizards are already the most powerful class in 3.5. They don't need a bunch of free stuff, no matter how many dead levels you need to fill.

Doesn't wish still have an XP cost in 3.5? If so, then this just frees up a 9th level spell slot, nothing more.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Mar 20, 2008

Dr. Awkward said:
I can't be the only one who looked at all the free spells wizards get (Universal: Wish 1/day, Limited Wish 1/day as spell-like abilities), and thought "Hmm... what do they trade off for this? Hmm...nothing? Oh dear."

Wizards are already the most powerful class in 3.5. They don't need a bunch of free stuff, no matter how many dead levels you need to fill.

I'd say the specifically listed spells are probably just working that way since it's still an Alpha (you remember, the same state that Gleemax is in

). I guess they will retain their XP cost or the lists will be changed / more limited.

Anyway, the direction isn't really useful. Why add a daily spell-like ability instead of a spell slot? That's what happening effectively anyway, so the flaw is:
It doesn't fix any problem.
The number of spells per day doesn't need to be upped. The number of options during a typical combat need fixing.

It has some similiarties to the skill changes. It might make skill management easier (important for NPCs and multiclassing purposes), and adds effectively more skill poins per day. But it doesn't fit the problem of the skill system itself - the difference between a untrained guy, a dipper, a maxed out skill and a super specialist (loaded with synergy bonus, skill focus, any of the +2/+2 feats, a magical item and a spell to boost it). And if you're not fixing this, why not just add more skill points and remove cross class skill point cost? You get the same effect, but at least retain the flexibility that so many "3.5ers" enjoy.

Well, it's an Alpha, so maybe that's what will happen in the end.

Geron Raveneye · Mar 20, 2008

Dr. Awkward said:
I can't be the only one who looked at all the free spells wizards get (Universal: Wish 1/day, Limited Wish 1/day as spell-like abilities), and thought "Hmm... what do they trade off for this? Hmm...nothing? Oh dear."

How about "Their bonus spells" as an answer? Might not weigh up the gain of school abilities, cantrips at will and the broadened Arcane Bond ability, but they do lose something.