Pathfinder at high levels?

I don't think I have the patience to wait six months to a year for the 5e version to build enough of a buffer that I'd be willing to start; I want to run Zeitgeist now! :.-( So I'll have to try to talk my gaming group into sticking with Pathfinder. I think I can handle that part. (There's no chance at all of 4e.)

However, we've never gone beyond 10th level in Pathfinder. I was a player in a 3.5 game back in the day that hit epic levels, and I do recall some breakdowns of the math then.

Has anyone here hit endgame in Pathfinder Zeitgeist? What are your experiences? Did rules tweaks need to be made?

Thanks in advance :)
 

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[MENTION=12882]ltclnlbrain[/MENTION] (I hope I spelled that right) helped with our high-level PF conversions, and I believe he's the only GM to have completed the campaign so far.

I'm currently playing Iron Gods and our party is 17th level. It's ridiculous and dumb. My magic frog helmet shoots a tongue of force as a swift action, yanks me to my target, and lets me flurry for ~200 damage. Our magus crits with disintegrate through his scimitar. Our oracle casually opens rifts to the Abyss.

Incidental fights don't last long. I'm pretty sure the GM powers up the boss fights. But I'm pretty sure in ZEITGEIST we did an ok job making enemies at high level who can survive long enough to be interesting.
 

efreund

Explorer
It's a legitimate concern.

From my non-Zeitgeist experience, I've found that Pathfinder starts to break down after level 12, and completely falls apart starting at 16. Not so much because of math, but because of the bloat of options, and trying to handle all the effects and creatures simultaneously. (Want to kill all fun at a table? Cast antimagic field in the midst of the party. It's only a 6th level spell (thus avail at 11th level), and then everyone has to recalc their entire sheet, as so much of a character's (particularly melee warrior's) stats come from gear.)

Anyway, my hands-on Zeitgeist experience only goes up to 6th level (which might not sound like much, but ZG is a huge campaign with a slow curve: that's 4 adventure books and 9 months of play). But from what I've GMed firsthand (and what continues to be validated by reading ahead) is that Zeitgeist really, really is different. The clearest case-study in this is the battle on the Coaltongue, the 2nd fight of the campaign. If you haven't already: study it. Not just read it, but really study it. Look at the players' goals, the constraints the game sets up, and the various strategies the players would want to take. It's not at all a "surround them all and kill them" sort of affair that 99% of combats in a Paizo/WotC module serve up. And it's difficult to understate how profoundly this effects tableplay. I will go as far as to say it's like you're playing a different game altogether, and is one of the reasons why I'm a huge ZG fanboy. (Incidentally, it also likewise effects character builds, as the typical "go for huge DPS" is no longer a go-to melee strategy.)

Now, there's a downside to this too. Combats in Zeitgeist take longer. The PCs are spending time doing things other than systematically whacking away at their foes, and there's usually a lot of terrain or strategic considerations. For every fight. A mitigation on this is that there is virtually no "filler" combats. Pretty much every combat is either foreshadowed, against a named NPC you've met before, or advances the plotline in a decisive way. (Again, this is very different from the Paizo/WotC implementation strategy, which tends to have a lot of extra monsters lying around just to eat up attrition.) So it doesn't feel as much like a waste to sit through the (sometimes quite long) combats.

However, I should mention one "overhead" problem that Zeitgeist has: the stipend system. Basically, Zeitgeist has very little in the way of planted/lootable treasure. (But that which does exist is always colorful, plot-based, and worth holding on to. But they'll never cover your "big 6", for example.) The game instead gives you a stipend (basically, your in-game boss pays you a salary) and more-or-less every time you level up, you get additional stipend to go with it, to keep you pretty close to WBL. At very low level, my players loved this, as they got to pick exactly what gear they wanted. But it quickly overstayed its welcome, and became more of a chore than a treat. ("Dammit guys, we gotta spend 10k more GP before we can start the session.") The higher level you get, the more purchase-options there are, and the more stipend-gold you have to throw around. Also, as you get higher and higher level, it starts to beg the question of "would that really be for sale?", if a player asks for something peculiar, perhaps a +3 rifle of speed. With a +1 vorpal bayonet. With energy drain. And armor-piercing bullets. Filled with witch-oil. (Which is a reasonable ask at high level - but then you're constantly adjudicating what is "in stock", versus what you can "special order" (and on what timeframe), versus what might be illegal (and thus available with the right contacts), and it quickly grows tiresome.) It's just too much, too often. One great thing about 5e is that it is far less dependent on gear for power. For PF, it's arguably more essential than level.

One option: play ZG under the PF rules until "enough" of it has come out in 5e, and then switch over. You could just do this at an arbitrary time with no in-game justification, or...
[sblock]The climax of book 9 involves breaking the laws of reality itself. Starting in adventure 10, magic and physics itself is reforming. If you needed an in-game justification to change rules systems, you couldn't have asked for a better excuse. FWIW, this happens when you hit (PF) level 17, so it might be a bit late if you're trying to avoid the teen-levels altogether.[/sblock]

Finally, one cold, sobering thought: you're not actually likely to finish the campaign. It's a long campaign. Thirteen books!!! Compare to the Paizo Adventure Path system that only does 6 books. This is literally more than twice as long. (ZG levels you up much slower than Paizo modules.) And it really is more content too. Each ZG book is anywhere from 80-100 pages, all of which is game-content. Each Paizo AP issue is 96 pages, of which usually 10 pages are not game-content (the fiction, and there's always extra monsters in the bestiary). You're signing up for very, very, very long campaign with ZG. So, all the concern about high level PF might be moot. :( Just being practical.

Anyway, good luck!
 
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efreund

Explorer
I'm currently playing Iron Gods and our party is 17th level. It's ridiculous and dumb.
...
But I'm pretty sure in ZEITGEIST we did an ok job making enemies at high level who can survive long enough to be interesting.
I'd be curious to throw your party at the Catastrophe Dragon. Despite what I said in my post above, it's pretty much a classic "it's big, kill it" style boss, and thus probably transplants across parties and builds pretty well. And you're basically the right level.

Give it all the buffs from the timeline, except for the one anti-buff that reduces its Fast Healing. I've oft-studied its stat block in its CR 25 glory, and wondered how it really stacks up. (Again, as it's pretty much the only barebones "kill the BBEG" pokemon battle in the campaign.) And one of the very few statblocks natively written for PF, if I understand the history correctly.

Besides, I'm terribly curious how the lead dev handles his own campaign as a player. Mwa ha ha ha.
 

Well, the SR by itself basically thwarts the whole party, since we have two magi and an oracle, plus my brawler. At 17th level, I'm a little shy of totally optimized, but I'm pretty tough, with a +27 attack bonus, so if the party is buffed with heroism and haste, and we flank it (ha!), and I flurry, I hit maybe two or three times. I don't know whether my attacks would bypass Good DR, but there are a bunch of paladins in town, so I assume someone could help me out. We've all got resist 10 fire or better (because of lasers), so we have at least a small chance of attacking and not melting. Maybe I deal 75 damage to it. If I'm smart, I grab some feats to let me lower its SR by 2, which at least gives the casters a *tiny* chance to hit it.

The dragon always hits my AC 40, even if it power attacks. If it does power attack, it probably kills me in one round.

It probably annihilates me, then the rest of the party flees because their spells can bypass its SR only 10% of the time.

Maybe the PC in power armor could survive three rounds, since the power armor gives him 300 temporary hit points. But his attack bonus is worse than mine.
 

efreund

Explorer
Gotta do a trench-run:

Devouring Essence (Su) Esurientes is a damned creature. Lacking any true soul of its own, it hungrily devours all living creatures, trying to sate its emptiness. Esurientes cannot be resurrected, raised, or otherwise brought back to life—once the unholy energies holding it together are dispersed, it is truly dead. However, a creature swallowed by it has unique access (however briefly) to the dragon’s evil essence. Attacks from within bypass the dragon’s DR, SR, and various resistances (but not its immunity to fire). Positive energy damage dealt to it from inside is doubled. If a creature frees itself from inside the dragon after being swallowed, Esurientes is stunned for one round.

c/f:
swallow whole (2d10 plus 4d10 fire plus one negative level, AC 31, 52 hp)

Being swallowed counts as grappled, which neuters a lot of melee-ers, since that means they can't bring any large weapons to bear. But monks can do their thing (unarmed flurry) in grapple no problem. The damage you take for sitting inside the beast is actually pretty low for your level, and can ride it out for quite a few rounds (esp w resist fire). And you're sheltered from all his normal attacks and special abilities! No reason for you to spend any time outside the beast, really.

EDIT: now, that's admittedly open-book. I don't know how, in the course of natural play, you're supposed to "figure out" that that's the optimal (or even possible) strategy.
 
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It is funny to hear that [MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION] is playing in an Iron Gods campaign. I am currently running a mash-up of Zeitgeist/Iron Gods AP.

I was originally supposed to be just running Iron Gods. Then I got my hands on the first few adventures of Zeigeist and I couldn't resist.
However, I couldn't disappoint my players who were expecting robots and lasers, so I smashed the two together.
Had to change a bit of the lore/characters, but the campaigns merge surprisingly well! For example, there is still strife between those who welcome industry/new technology and those who keep to the old ways (e.g. the town of Iadenveigh).

Or how the rulers of Numeria are a bunch of mages (Technic League)/barbarians (Black Soverign) and danor is fairly magicless and full of guns. These two combinations do not mix well which could easily lead to power struggles.
 

I managed a compromise of interspersing PF-Z with one-shot games in other systems. I hope the group comes to love Zeitgeist enough to put up with the system. ^.^

So, a couple of questions:

1) What's the most up to date and correct version of the players' guide for Pathfinder? The one in the hardcover, or the separate Expanded version? The versions of both I have aren't quite the same, especially in the naval combat rules.

2) What do you recommend for the ability score point buy -- 15, 20, 25?
 


efreund

Explorer
I view point-buy as a difficulty-slider:
Hardmode: 10 pointbuy
Medium: 15 pointbuy
Easymode: 20 pointbuy
Training Wheels: 25 pointbuy

I simply put that choice, in that way, before my players, and let them choose their own point buy. Why not let them all choose, individually, how difficult they'd like their game to be? They all ended up picking 15. I have had no issues with it.

(Note that from a system-impact perspective, choosing very high or very low point buy impacts the viability of some builds. Low-PB corrals characters toward classes that only need one attribute to really shine, like Fighters or Wizards. High-PB entices towards MAD classes, like the Monk or Gishes.)
 

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