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Savage Pathfinder Pathfinder for Savage Worlds Is Live!

The Kickstarter for Pathfinder for Savage Worlds is live! It includes two boxed sets -- the Rise of the Runelords adventure path and a core rules boxed set which includes the Savage Pathfinder core book, a bestiary, and a ton of additional material.


The big question -- how do they do classes? -- is answered. Classes are replicated via Edge trees; one for each traditional Pathfinder class.

Two of the designers -- Chris Warner and Mike Barbeau -- appeared on our podcast last week to talk all about it.


You can grab it digitally for $25, the core rules hardcover is $50, the core boxed set is $200, and both boxed sets together comes to $300.
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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

I have a couple of the big boxes. However, I think I would want to go for the physical boxes regardless. All that stuff will be good if I ever get to play in person again. However, if that doesn't happen, then the PDFs would be fine. But in that case, I won't be playing Savage Worlds online (which seems pretty impossible on my VTT). And if I'm not playing it online, then I won't be playing it - and ergo, I shouldn't buy it anyway.
Befuddled.

We've been playing on Foundry VTT, and it's fantastic for Savage Worlds. Pinnacle just signed off on an "official" module for it a few weeks ago.

I absolutely hated Roll20 with a passion. The UI is so, so bad, and it's so, so slow. Fantasy Grounds just seemed to be way more "campaign management" tools than I needed.
 

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dbm

Adventurer
I ran weekly sessions of Savage Worlds on Fantasy Grounds for over 9 months; it’s a fantastic implementation of the system with lots of automation and custom status effects for powers and so on.

For example, use the Speed / Slow ability and there and four or five custom status effects attached to the power which can be applied to characters to action the game effects.
 

Retreater

Legend
I dunno. I hear good things about VTTs other than Roll20, but I'm hesitant to take the plunge. I've had Fantasy Grounds for years and couldn't really get the hang of it. Even after a year of running 3+ games a week on Roll20, trying to come to Fantasy Grounds it just seems slow, jittery, and ready to crash at any moment (even bought a new PC primarily for the purposes of running online games). Importing maps, tokens, etc., seems like a real crapshoot.
And Foundry VTT - I don't know about that one. It seems very unstable. Like maybe it will work, maybe not. Maybe the modules get pulled. Maybe your features will continue to work, maybe not.
On top of learning a new VTT myself, I will have to teach the players (who are already at wits' end with Roll20) in addition to teaching them the mechanics of a completely new, medium-complexity rules system, with which they do not have access to the books (unless I make them buy their own copies).
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
And Foundry VTT - I don't know about that one. It seems very unstable. Like maybe it will work, maybe not. Maybe the modules get pulled. Maybe your features will continue to work, maybe not.
Unstable? What does that mean? I was thinking of taking a look, but do you know something I don't?
 

dbm

Adventurer
I've had Fantasy Grounds for years and couldn't really get the hang of it. Even after a year of running 3+ games a week on Roll20, trying to come to Fantasy Grounds it just seems slow, jittery, and ready to crash at any moment
Presumably that was FG Classic? FG Unity is, as far as I can tell, a complete rewrite on different tech stack. The downside is you would need a new license (though they do a lower cost ‘upgrade’ license). Content you have bought for FG Classic should work with Unity, no need to re-buy.
 

Retreater

Legend
Unstable? What does that mean? I was thinking of taking a look, but do you know something I don't?
From what I am following on a few social media groups (including Foundry-focused groups) and a few GMs I know who use it, most of the features are designed by community members. Some of these crowd-sourced features disappear at random or are shut down by various companies that don't technically approve them (which happened with DND Beyond). So you risk signing into your game one day, and key features are gone. Not to mention that you usually have to pay subscription costs or support these creators on Patreon who may or may not have legal permission to offer these resources.
It's all very shady to me.
 

I dunno. I hear good things about VTTs other than Roll20, but I'm hesitant to take the plunge. I've had Fantasy Grounds for years and couldn't really get the hang of it. Even after a year of running 3+ games a week on Roll20, trying to come to Fantasy Grounds it just seems slow, jittery, and ready to crash at any moment (even bought a new PC primarily for the purposes of running online games). Importing maps, tokens, etc., seems like a real crapshoot.
And Foundry VTT - I don't know about that one. It seems very unstable. Like maybe it will work, maybe not. Maybe the modules get pulled. Maybe your features will continue to work, maybe not.
On top of learning a new VTT myself, I will have to teach the players (who are already at wits' end with Roll20) in addition to teaching them the mechanics of a completely new, medium-complexity rules system, with which they do not have access to the books (unless I make them buy their own copies).

Unstable? What does that mean? I was thinking of taking a look, but do you know something I don't?

It's not "unstable," if you're talking about the actual application. The actual application has been incredibly robust. About the worst bugs I've encountered is very rarely a character sheet automated action might get stuck (javascript event management FTW!), but a quick refresh of the browser page and everything comes back roses.

I think @Retreater might be more referring to the system / module ecosystem. There's limited "official" support for things coming from DM's Guild / D&D Beyond. There was a converter made to automatically convert D&D Beyond content into Foundry, and WotC issued a cease and desist.

So yeah, if your goal is to get fully pre-configured, fully automated adventures/modules up and running without having to lift a finger, then yeah, you could be setting yourself up for disappointment with Foundry.

But the actual application is rock-solid stable, and infinitely more intuitive, faster, and easier to run than Roll20.

I've never tried Fantasy Grounds, but all the demos / video I've ever seen of it makes it seem like it's significantly over-engineered for the type of problems I really need a VTT to solve.
 

Retreater

Legend
Presumably that was FG Classic? FG Unity is, as far as I can tell, a complete rewrite on different tech stack. The downside is you would need a new license (though they do a lower cost ‘upgrade’ license). Content you have bought for FG Classic should work with Unity, no need to re-buy.
Yes. Unfortunately, my only friend who has FGU (who is actually a professional Unity developer) has such trouble getting FGU to work that he claims it is actually worse than Classic. And if I didn't get much use out of Classic, it's hard for me to justify buying the software all over again if it's not markedly improved.
 

From what I am following on a few social media groups (including Foundry-focused groups) and a few GMs I know who use it, most of the features are designed by community members. Some of these crowd-sourced features disappear at random or are shut down by various companies that don't technically approve them (which happened with DND Beyond). So you risk signing into your game one day, and key features are gone. Not to mention that you usually have to pay subscription costs or support these creators on Patreon who may or may not have legal permission to offer these resources.
It's all very shady to me.

This hasn't been my experience at all. In fact, several community-contributed features/modules that I was using were actually picked up and incorporated into the core program a release or two later.

There is a very open-source vibe to the community, but that's not a negative in my mind. Yes, it's possible that at some point, the people who create a module may fail to maintain it. That's the nature of any software that tries to create a community ecosystem. But in 6+ months of using the app, everything I've experienced would cause me to give Foundry a whole-hearted endorsement. For my use case, it's an excellent piece of software.
 

Retreater

Legend
But the actual application is rock-solid stable, and infinitely more intuitive, faster, and easier to run than Roll20.
I mean, I'll have to see. I can't imagine a single thing that would improve 5e's implementation on Roll20, especially now that I can import maps from PDFs, create tokens, add line of sight, create custom creatures when needed, all in a matter of a few minutes. Plus it has official support for WotC products, already put in there for me.
If I was going to try to run something other than 5e that it doesn't handle well (like PF2), I would perhaps look into another VTT. Maybe if I eventually get around to running Savage Worlds or WFRPG (provided they are still legitimately supported on Foundry, and if they are well executed).
 

I mean, I'll have to see. I can't imagine a single thing that would improve 5e's implementation on Roll20, especially now that I can import maps from PDFs, create tokens, add line of sight, create custom creatures when needed, all in a matter of a few minutes. Plus it has official support for WotC products, already put in there for me.
If I was going to try to run something other than 5e that it doesn't handle well (like PF2), I would perhaps look into another VTT. Maybe if I eventually get around to running Savage Worlds or WFRPG (provided they are still legitimately supported on Foundry, and if they are well executed).

Well, my comments are definitely colored by the perspective that I couldn't care less about Foundry's support for D&D 5e, because I don't and never will play it.

If your primary purpose was to play 5e, and get as much "officially supported" content as humanly possible, then yeah, Fantasy Grounds might be your best bet.

I will never, ever in my life encourage anyone to use Roll20. Outside of anything written by Oracle, I've never seen so many poor design choices embedded into a single piece of software.
 

Retreater

Legend
Well, my comments are definitely colored by the perspective that I couldn't care less about Foundry's support for D&D 5e, because I don't and never will play it.

If your primary purpose was to play 5e, and get as much "officially supported" content as humanly possible, then yeah, Fantasy Grounds might be your best bet.

I will never, ever in my life encourage anyone to use Roll20. Outside of anything written by Oracle, I've never seen so many poor design choices embedded into a single piece of software.
I have one game that is still on 5e because it's familiar to everyone. The others are OSR which are mostly just using it for die rolling and maps. But everyone started on Roll20 for its relative ease of use with 5e and its ability to work within certain technical limitations (browser based, no downloads, works on Chromebooks).
Changing horses midstream when everyone is overwhelmed with a pandemic and other real world issues (new babies for four players across my groups) isn't something I want to add to my players' plates right now. If they are happy with Roll20 for now, then I will be too.
 

Retreater

Legend
To get back on track discussing the product, I was just curious to see the absolute cheapest way to play Runelords with hard copy products. The size of Savage Worlds books are probably close to the pocket line from Paizo. So we have a Pocket Core Rulebook ($23), Pocket Bestiary ($18), and Pocket Rise of the Runelords ($24), for a grand total of $65.
For the original, full MSRP cost of getting all this new back in 2007, you'd be looking at $120 for the 6 individual adventure books, $40 for the Bestiary, and $50 for the core rulebook ($210 total, or approximately $262 when adjusted for inflation).
So you're looking at spending $38 for a map, several decks of cards, counters, tokens, etc., beyond the cost of the original set in 2007. Not a bad deal when you think about it.
 

dbm

Adventurer
Yes. Unfortunately, my only friend who has FGU (who is actually a professional Unity developer) has such trouble getting FGU to work that he claims it is actually worse than Classic.
I’m not trying to sell you on it :). If others are wondering about platforms, however, then FGU has massively stabilised in the last six weeks or so. It has gone from Beta with approximately four drops per week to a release with only one code drop every couple of weeks.
 
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Retreater

Legend
I’m not trying to sell you on it :). If others are wondering about platforms, however, then FGU has massively stabilised in the last six weeks or so. It has gone from Beta with approximately four drops per week to a release with only one code drop every couple of weeks.
That's good to know. The last time I heard anything was that it was still a pretty unstable platform and didn't really offer any improvements over Classic (while being less reliable). The fans I've talked to love it regardless and I never felt I could get a straight answer.
 

dbm

Adventurer
That’s just the nature of re-platforming. You always end up with less capability, initially, and there is a pain barrier to go through.
On the flip side, me and our other GM both have Macs, so FGC would have been a non-starter for us!
 

skotothalamos

formerly roadtoad
I can't imagine a single thing that would improve 5e's implementation on Roll20,
For me, the tipping point was when I found the automation module for Foundry that lets players click on an enemy (or multiple enemies) to target them, then click on their attack or spell, and have the VTT roll the attack, compare to the targets AC, roll damage (checking for resistances), change hit points, and auto-roll a concentration check if necessary.

But that's all third-party mods. It definitely takes some setup.

anyway, that's all off-topic here. Super-excited for this! I've never been able to get my D&D group into Pathfinder (more complicated while also being too similar, so there was rules confusion between games). But I think I can get them to try an entirely different system. (If not, I guess I'll make a second group lol)
 
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Retreater

Legend
I wonder if there will be new art....that'd probably the only reason why I'd back it.
Everything I've seen so far (based on the KS promotion) has been recycled from previous releases. That said, the last time Pinnacle did something like this (taking an existing IP and converting it to SW - which was the Rifts KS), they did get a lot of new (and quite good) art.
 


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