Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: Is it evidence that new editions don't need to be that different?

[Hunter In Darkness]

sorry man but a one line post of "Pathfinder is just a houseruled 3.5" was indeed a drive by trolling

And yes banning about the it's just houseruled is meant negative almost every single time

 

[wedgeski]

A VTT that is a monthly subscription looks very attractive to WOTC (which is why I think we will eventually see a VTT - WOTC has simply learnt the Blizzard business model. Don't announce ANYTHING until you pretty much out the door)

Actually that's the exact *opposite* of the Blizzard model. They announce when a product is demonstrable and to a certain level of polish, but history shows us that it can take literally years for them to get that product out the door - if ever. I don't think there are many people except Blizzard who can actually get away with that.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think you are putting too much stock in the word "houserule". It's not an attack on Paizo and Pathfinder to claim they are not professional. Of course it is official. Houserule merely implies that Pathfinder is fairly close to 3.5, something which btw was stated from the beginning as being Paizo's intention. I fail to see your problem with this. And did you look at the ad? They are basically equating Pathfinder with 3.5. I realize this is to capitalize on the brand of D&D, but it's also to stress that they want to give the impression that Pathfinder is compatible with the 345 books in your OGL library.

Oh and stop accusing people of trolling and starting edition wars. That will only start something worse, if people pay attention to you. Instead, report people if you have a problem with what they say.

"It's just 3.5 with houserules" is to Paizo what "It's video gamey" is to 4e.

 

[Reigan]

Although I continued to buy some of the later 3.5 books, it was more for completest reasons and for something to read rather than any possibility I would ever get to play with any of it. As a once a week player in games where character death was rare there was never any chance of that. In the end I felt there was just too many rules and options so as a dm I switched to Arcana Evolved, it was just more manageable.

One of the major pluses of 4e is how the books are structured and compartmentalized. Moving away from something for every character in a book has made life a lot easier for me (although I appreciate a lot people like the challenge of splat book mining for interesting characters to play).

 

[Jhaelen]

Which brings me back to 4e. Do you think Pathfinder is a sign WOTC could have been less radical in a new edition and still done extrememly well?

Nope.
As you've been pointing out 'doing extremely well' means something different for Paizo than it does for WotC. The number of players that are happy to continue playing D&D 3E in its Pathfinder incarnation isn't anywhere large enough to justify continued product support by a company as big as WotC.

For WotC to be 'doing extremely well' indeed required a more radical departure from 3E.

P.S.: I'd like to mention that I've bought most of the 4E books _and_ the Pathfinder RPG book despite still playing 3E. Considering player feedback after our 4E playtest week it's pretty much a given that we'll switch to 4E when our 3E campaign is finished.

The sole reason I bought Pathfinder was because I was curious about what the Paizo guys have been doing to 3E. I don't expect to ever play it, but then again, you never know

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

- Junglescape, Mountainscape
- Complete Psionic Revised to Not Cause Migraines
- Arms & Equipment Revised
- Monster Manual Companion I, a bunch of worked out examples of advanced and variant monsters of each level, similar to the format used in later Monster Manuals and the 4e books
- Feynomicon, Giantnomicon
- Dark Sun, Mystara, Greyhawk
- Strongholds, massed combat, and rulership
- Revised Epic Handbook
- Alternate campaign builder: Camelot, The Mighty Fortress, Heroic Greece, and Legendary Nippon as worked out examples, with suggetions for dialing magic up and down, modifying or replacing classes, and redefining game elements (like races, special materials, enhancement bonuses etc).
- A couple of mega-modules for characters in the 8-14 level range
- Unearthed Arcana 2, with more class variations (like beefed up fighters), alternate grappling rules, alternate magic item crafting rules, critical hits by location, etc.
- A series of Complete books based on the party's rationale: Complete Retainer, Complete Mercenary, Complete Band of Heroes, Complete Soldier, etc.
- Book of immortal play, a la gold box Immortals, The Primal Order, etc.

That oughta hold the line for a couple of years.

The dwindling number of players combined with the limited market for these books would not have carried the line for a couple of years. I know that for me, I would probably use....1 or 2 of the books in that entire list. And I bought nearly every 3.5e book that came out. I would probably continue to buy books, even if I didn't use them. I'll admit that. But people who were more picky than me would likely have just stopped purchasing them. Even for the last year or so of 3.5e books, I kept buying them and never using them at all. I still have a pile of 5 or 6 completely unread 3.5e books.

I'm sure even I would figure out I wasn't using the books and stop buying them eventually.

 

[JeffB]

I don't know if it's viable for WOTC or everyone, but they totally hosed me on the "similar edition" with 3.0/3.5. I love 4E, but if there is a 4.5- No way, Never again. Even if I did ike 3.5 I'd not be buying PF either, its the SoS with some tweaks and a different cover.

For me there has to be some significant changes/improvements from edition to edition. I may not like them, but I don't want rehash books every few years with only a slightly different gameplay experience.

 

[Herschel]

- Junglescape, Mountainscape
- Complete Psionic Revised to Not Cause Migraines
- Arms & Equipment Revised
- Monster Manual Companion I, a bunch of worked out examples of advanced and variant monsters of each level, similar to the format used in later Monster Manuals and the 4e books
- Feynomicon, Giantnomicon
- Dark Sun, Mystara, Greyhawk
- Strongholds, massed combat, and rulership
- Revised Epic Handbook
- Alternate campaign builder: Camelot, The Mighty Fortress, Heroic Greece, and Legendary Nippon as worked out examples, with suggetions for dialing magic up and down, modifying or replacing classes, and redefining game elements (like races, special materials, enhancement bonuses etc).
- A couple of mega-modules for characters in the 8-14 level range
- Unearthed Arcana 2, with more class variations (like beefed up fighters), alternate grappling rules, alternate magic item crafting rules, critical hits by location, etc.
- A series of Complete books based on the party's rationale: Complete Retainer, Complete Mercenary, Complete Band of Heroes, Complete Soldier, etc.
- Book of immortal play, a la gold box Immortals, The Primal Order, etc.

That oughta hold the line for a couple of years.

I had a good chuckle at your psionics example, that one is too true. As for the others, they appear to me to be pretty niche. I bolded the ones that would likely be best, at least in my eyes. I do wonder if a worked up MM would have been well received though. It's something that would have interested me but I'm not sure how many others.

 

[DaveMage]

For me there has to be some significant changes/improvements from edition to edition. I may not like them, but I don't want rehash books every few years with only a slightly different gameplay experience.

This is what I hate about the "edition" model RPGs use and its planned obsolesence. I hate the fact that the same stuff gets sold again and again, and I hate the fact that new rules often invalidate (or greatly diminish the usefulness of) old products.

I wish that there would be one FINAL edition of an RPG and then the rest of the products (for all time) are support products (like adventures and sourcebooks). Make the core rules "evergreen" and stop the roller coaster.

But, no, we're stuck with the edition model, making products we buy for one edition much less usable (if not obsolete) with a new edition.

As to the original question, we don't really *need* new editions at all (ask Diaglo if he needs one), but since 1E and 2E are so similar, and 3.0 and 3.5 are so similar, no, you do not need editions to be that different to sell them.

 

[Herschel]

So what you guys are saying is 3.5 was really a houseruled 3.0 right? and 4e?

Guy's "It's just a houseruled 3.5" Is a very silly argument . Every single rule for any game was made up by someone. A house rule is an unoffical House rule of someones game. Not a published official rule

It's the evolution of 3.5 by someone else, same as Mutants and master minds, conan d20, or anything of the like. 'Oh it's just a houseruled 3.5 " is a troll edition war shot and nothing more

I disagree. When WotC makes a change, it's from the official, legal, licensed designer of the system/product. That's official, IMO. Paizo took someone's existing system, cleaned up a number of things they saw needed fixed (just like many of us have all the way back in any edition) and the difference there being they actually went after publishing rights and put it in book form. It's still their "houseruled" version of 3.5 as their ad campaign clearly states. Their house is just a business instead of one of us in the den with a notebook.