Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Umbran]

Thus the underhandedness of WotC's actions.

Underhandedness requires some level of secrecy, deception, or misdirection. WotC's action was pretty blatant and obvious.

 

[Talok]

Maybe underhanded isn't exactly the right word. Whatever you want to call it, it was still a pretty jerkish thing to do.

 

[Imaro]

Underhandedness requires some level of secrecy, deception, or misdirection. WotC's action was pretty blatant and obvious.

Then I would say what went down with the offline and online CB's was kinda underhanded. There was alot of secrecy and misdirection with that change.

 

[Gorgoroth]

one more point of data

Our group played 4e since the beginning, and I'm currently playing two games, but after my main guy finishes paragon, I will probably be sticking exclusively to Pathfinder.

Because it "feels" more like D&D to me and my group mates. Also, I am SICK of the constant needless nerfs requiring the group to wonder, wtf how was that broken? We lost 1/2 our players already to nerfs. (nerfs to classes that were already underpowered, to gamers who were not munchkins or exploiters but just wanted to have fun).

After the latest round of wizard nerfs, and killing Blinding Barrage for Rogues, I believe our wizard and rogue will be that much closer to give up on 4e for good. Hopefully we'll make it to level 16 before then and we can enjoy our paragon features we grinded through to get. Just look at your character sheet, 99% of the huge amount of wasted space is devoted to combat. That should tell you a bit about the game. The skill system is terrible, out of combat is basically a different set of rules to in-combat.

ugh, just so many things that are wrong, and the stuff it does right, Wizards keeps messing with until we get fed up with that too. No, Wizards, I am not paying for the Essentials book to be able to summon a horse as a paladin. Forcing it to be stuck on Cavaliers instead of all paladins IS an underhanded thing to do, as was getting us all to subsidize OCB unbeknownst to us, while we were in fact waiting patiently for Dark Sun material in the original builder.

The OCB still sucks, close to a year later. And what it they go under or abandon 4e? All that money we gave them for developing a character generator will be for naught, since the OCB will be dead. This is bad business AND underhanded too. House rules, for example, could be enabled with a single click in the OCB, despite their assurances that they are "working on it". Hehe, yeah right.

Lots of underhanded tactics were in fact used, if you are not bending over backwards to side with them.

4e is a game where new players who don't have the builder almost invariably build crappy characters and haven't even added up the bonuses right. Even experienced characters in other game systems find the rules a big, confusing, obtuse mess.

And I like 4e. I really do. But it's not as good as Pathfinder...not even close.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Sad I like WFRP3e. Not my preferred edition of WFRP, but it is interesting and good quality.

/M

They lost me at the stupid dice.

But I think that the reason it isn't selling is the huge, but mostly empty, box and the high price point. Once you look at the contents it just doesn't seem worth the price. They should have just stuck with regular dice and books, in my not at all humble opinion. The WH40K RPG games have sold off of those same shelves - WHFRP is looking lonely.

Damned shame, I liked both previous editions of WHFRP. I like the setting. I like having a huge assortment of metal and plastic minis for use in that setting (I have Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Dwarfs, and Empire for Fantasy Battle - collected over twenty or thirty years). But this edition of WHFRP just seemed like too much change for the sake of change, so I lumped it in with other overly large, overly expensive Fantasy Flight releases and ignored it.

The Auld Grump

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Our group played 4e since the beginning, and I'm currently playing two games, but after my main guy finishes paragon, I will probably be sticking exclusively to Pathfinder.

Because it "feels" more like D&D to me and my group mates. Also, I am SICK of the constant needless nerfs requiring the group to wonder, wtf how was that broken? We lost 1/2 our players already to nerfs. (nerfs to classes that were already underpowered, to gamers who were not munchkins or exploiters but just wanted to have fun).

After the latest round of wizard nerfs, and killing Blinding Barrage for Rogues, I believe our wizard and rogue will be that much closer to give up on 4e for good. Hopefully we'll make it to level 16 before then and we can enjoy our paragon features we grinded through to get. Just look at your character sheet, 99% of the huge amount of wasted space is devoted to combat. That should tell you a bit about the game. The skill system is terrible, out of combat is basically a different set of rules to in-combat.

I suspect that part of the 'Balance' issue is their Encounters outreach program - that characters should have a balanced playing field at all levels. I could be wrong though.

Ugh, just so many things that are wrong, and the stuff it does right, Wizards keeps messing with until we get fed up with that too. No, Wizards, I am not paying for the Essentials book to be able to summon a horse as a paladin. Forcing it to be stuck on Cavaliers instead of all paladins IS an underhanded thing to do, as was getting us all to subsidize OCB unbeknownst to us, while we were in fact waiting patiently for Dark Sun material in the original builder.

This might have been underhanded. Not familiar enough with the situation to say, but I certainly remember players exploding about it. Underhanded or not, swapping a functional program out for for an incomplete one was silly. But they wanted control of their property, and prevent One Month Wonders subscribing, downloading the program, and leaving. (As opposed to adding content to the DDi to make it worth sticking around....)

The OCB still sucks, close to a year later. And what it they go under or abandon 4e? All that money we gave them for developing a character generator will be for naught, since the OCB will be dead. This is bad business AND underhanded too. House rules, for example, could be enabled with a single click in the OCB, despite their assurances that they are "working on it". Hehe, yeah right.

I didn't even know that they were supposedly working on it.

I kind of hope that they are. I think that rules tinkering should be encouraged, regardless of system.

Lots of underhanded tactics were in fact used, if you are not bending over backwards to side with them.

Maybe not so much 'Underhanded' as 'Money grubbing'? I never signed on to 4e, in part because the preview books struck me as money grubbing. (And the fact that those same books just plain annoyed me on every level... they made me dislike 4e before it even appeared. )

4e is a game where new players who don't have the builder almost invariably build crappy characters and haven't even added up the bonuses right. Even experienced characters in other game systems find the rules a big, confusing, obtuse mess.

I dunno, I avoided the game.

And I like 4e. I really do. But it's not as good as Pathfinder...not even close.

Well, I like Pathfinder better too, but that just comes down to what I like and don't like. People should have the chance to waste their time rollin' dice, killin' monsters, and lootin' treasure, regardless of edition or system.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Oh, and enjoy your Pathfinder game!

 

[Henry]

4e is a game where new players who don't have the builder almost invariably build crappy characters and haven't even added up the bonuses right. Even experienced characters in other game systems find the rules a big, confusing, obtuse mess.

And I like 4e. I really do. But it's not as good as Pathfinder...not even close.

I don't agree with the first part of the paragraph, but I definitely agree with the second -- I've seen it first-hand, and still occasionally remind very skilled gamers, guys who can figure out a Pathfinder or 3.5 Wizard or Cleric forwards and backwards, how to properly add up attack and damage bonuses in 4E. If a game does this, some reorganization and better explanation need to be part of the game.

 

[Maggan]

I lumped it in with other overly large, overly expensive Fantasy Flight releases and ignored it.

I bought it and placed it besides the several other huge FFG releases I have in my bookshelf. Then I tried to read it to learn it, and then I posted about that on my blog.

The Altdorf Correspondent: WFRP: Embrace change, or seek solace in familiarity?

For those who don't want to click through, the summary reads thus:

"WFRPv3 is cool and all, but it doesn't light my fire. I'm sticking with WFRPv2."

/M

 

[Dannager]

Our group played 4e since the beginning, and I'm currently playing two games, but after my main guy finishes paragon, I will probably be sticking exclusively to Pathfinder.

That's wonderful for you.

Because it "feels" more like D&D to me and my group mates.

You don't need to justify your personal preferences. In fact, you're often better off not trying to, because it's easy to fall into the trap of justifying those preferences with poor reasons.

Also, I am SICK of the constant needless nerfs requiring the group to wonder, wtf how was that broken?

Just because you personally didn't see the need for a rules update doesn't mean that a need didn't exist.

We lost 1/2 our players already to nerfs. (nerfs to classes that were already underpowered, to gamers who were not munchkins or exploiters but just wanted to have fun).

I can't even imagine the sort of player who would leave a game over a rules update. I'm terribly sorry that you've had to deal with that sort of person in your game, twice.

After the latest round of wizard nerfs, and killing Blinding Barrage for Rogues, I believe our wizard and rogue will be that much closer to give up on 4e for good.

Make that three times.

Hopefully we'll make it to level 16 before then and we can enjoy our paragon features we grinded through to get.

lol I love how you tossed the word "grinded" in here.

Just look at your character sheet, 99% of the huge amount of wasted space is devoted to combat.

Looking at a character sheet right now, it's more like 50%. Unless you count the cards, which aren't really a part of the character sheet any more than a printout of all of a Wizard's spells would be part of a Pathfinder character sheet.

But sure, everyone loves a good round of crazy hyperbole.

That should tell you a bit about the game.

It says far more about your opinion of the game than it does about the game itself. If you had chosen to avoid wild exaggeration, it might say something, but you didn't.

The skill system is terrible, out of combat is basically a different set of rules to in-combat.

Sounds like you'll enjoy the radically different Pathfinder skill system.

Oh.

Wait.

ugh, just so many things that are wrong, and the stuff it does right, Wizards keeps messing with until we get fed up with that too. No, Wizards, I am not paying for the Essentials book to be able to summon a horse as a paladin.

You don't need to. Buy a DDI subscription.

But, regardless, I'm sure WotC is very sorry to hear that.

Forcing it to be stuck on Cavaliers instead of all paladins IS an underhanded thing to do,

I'm not sure that you understand the meaning of the highlighted word.

as was getting us all to subsidize OCB unbeknownst to us, while we were in fact waiting patiently for Dark Sun material in the original builder.

Yes, it is regrettable that you thought that the money you were paying for a suite of in-development tools might not be used for the development of new tools.

The OCB still sucks, close to a year later.

The OCB is better than the original CB in many respects - content, ease of use, tool integration, cloud storage. Really the only area that it objectively falls behind in is custom content. If that's your standard for "sucks", then I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

And what it they go under or abandon 4e? All that money we gave them for developing a character generator will be for naught, since the OCB will be dead.

Yes, subscription services end when the subscription service provider goes out of business. This shouldn't surprise you.

This is bad business AND underhanded too.

You're attacking WotC for something it hasn't done (and, frankly, probably won't do) yet?

House rules, for example, could be enabled with a single click in the OCB, despite their assurances that they are "working on it". Hehe, yeah right.

House rules could be enabled with a single click? What? Where are you getting this information? It's certainly not anything I've ever heard.

Lots of underhanded tactics were in fact used, if you are not bending over backwards to side with them.

Yes, that's it. Anyone who disagrees with your wildly inflamed opinion must be bending over backwards to side with them. Trust me, coming up with this post didn't exactly take a lot of work on my part.

4e is a game where new players who don't have the builder almost invariably build crappy characters and haven't even added up the bonuses right.

Gosh, that sounds like every RPG ever made.

I sure hope you're not expecting that to suddenly resolve itself when you make the switch to Pathfinder. At least 4e has an official, up-to-date character builder application to make the process essentially painless.

Man, that felt good.

 

[czak]

I sure hope you're not expecting that to suddenly resolve itself when you make the switch to Pathfinder. At least 4e has an official, up-to-date character builder application to make the process essentially painless.

Herolab? It's official, up to date and painless, and on sale for 15 bucks right now on Loot!