Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Votan]

No, no - he's right. I mean, look at the DCC RPG coming out later this year. It has all the things he mentions...

Oh, wait. No, it doesn't.

How strange.

Ironically, in terms of digital support, Paizo has a different path and I find that it is starting to influence the game. In my in person game, two of the players have iPads and look at PDFs of the rulebooks during play. This seems to make transporting books a lot easier and speeds up rule look-ups during play.

4E has gone a different path (character builder and VTT) that also seems to be useful to a lot of players.

But you can play a classic game with only pen and paper with dice -- I see no reason that approach is about to rendered out of date. People can play chess using a computer screen or with wood pieces -- both approaches are currently co-existing.

 

[gamerprinter]

Whether Herolabs, MapTool or other VTT - Pathfinder is supported well with those programs. So saying VTT is 4e's path and not Pathfinder's path is not correct. Both systems support and are supported by Virtual Terrain apps. Though, I am strictly a pen and paper gamer (I have no neeeds for VTT).

GP

 

[Dannager]

So needing to "significantly" alter a character is a reasonable expectation, so long as it isn't more than twice....

I don't think that I said that. Did I say that? Oh, yep, no, didn't say that.

What I did say is that I make ridiculous characters who are quite deserving of the occasional nerf, and I've never had to alter a character more than twice to adjust. I then went on to say that someone who builds a character who receives so many nerfs that he is forced to actually "respec" his character nine times over the course of the game doesn't have a lot of credibility when they tell me they didn't see those nerfs coming a mile away.

 

[Dannager]

What's really galling is that nobody saw this vast obsolescence conspiracy coming after 3.5. They should just release the version of the game that doesn't need errata first and be done with it.

You should definitely apply to work at WotC. You clearly feel that churning out a perfect, error-free version of D&D is somewhere within the realm of possibility, and you're no doubt the right man to do the job.

I swear, posts like the above boggle my mind. Somehow, in the Halls of Entitlement that form the minds of certain D&D players, errata is a vast obsolescence conspiracy rather than something nice WotC is doing for the game.

Straight up crazytown.

 

[prosfilaes]

Just because you don't personally see the need for something does not mean that need doesn't exist.

In a game, yes, it more or less does. For one, if the people playing the game are happy, there's no need to change anything. For another, WotC isn't playing our game; it could be that the ability is not being used in a game-breaking way in our game.

It is unrealistic to expect that a game as complex and flexible as D&D will be free of problems in need of being addressed. The fact that WotC is providing free updates on a regular basis and incorporating those updates automatically into the online toolset is something that should be lauded. It is ridiculous in the extreme that anyone is upset with them for this.

It is ridiculous in the extreme that you don't understand why people don't want the rules of the game they're playing to be constantly changing under them. It is ridiculous in the extreme to not understand the difference between actual errors in the books, stuff that needs to be fixed to play, and things that work, but developers think could be improved. I'm not saying you're wrong for liking it, but you're wrong for dismissing other people's honest feelings on the matter.

I then went on to say that someone who builds a character who receives so many nerfs that he is forced to actually "respec" his character nine times over the course of the game doesn't have a lot of credibility when they tell me they didn't see those nerfs coming a mile away.

So now part of the game is anticipating nerfs. Again, not the type of game I want to play.

 

[Mournblade94]

You should definitely apply to work at WotC. You clearly feel that churning out a perfect, error-free version of D&D is somewhere within the realm of possibility, and you're no doubt the right man to do the job.

I swear, posts like the above boggle my mind. Somehow, in the Halls of Entitlement that form the minds of certain D&D players, errata is a vast obsolescence conspiracy rather than something nice WotC is doing for the game.

Straight up crazytown.

If people were not accepting of the current errata updates, WOTC (and Other game publishers) would be FORCED to ensure they were properly playtested. Even back in the 1st edition days, DRAGON published SOME corrections. It was by no means as rampant as it is today (thanks to technology I understand).

Sorry, it is not too much to ask that the PUBLISHERS put out their NEAR flawless product since they hire professionals.

The ease of technology has lowered the standards enough that volumes of Errata are acceptable. I still find it unacceptable. However I do not find it a 'conspiracy' or any nonsense like that. Simply it is a lowering of standards that everyone accepts.

WOTC COULD do better if they were forced to, and it would not be to hard for them, or too much to ask.

And this applies to ALL publishers if they take themselves seriously.

 

[technoextreme]

Sorry, it is not too much to ask that the PUBLISHERS put out their NEAR flawless product since they hire professionals.

If you playtest something doesn't that mean you aren't actually using professionals to test the productm which means that errors are going to get through regardless?

The ease of technology has lowered the standards enough that volumes of Errata are acceptable. I still find it unacceptable. However I do not find it a 'conspiracy' or any nonsense like that. Simply it is a lowering of standards that everyone accepts.

Its not really a lowering of standards in terms of how much errata gets produced but a raising up of a standards in terms of balance. Really what makes 4E really fun is that its pretty dam hard to make a bad character because of the parity in powers and abilities. The problem being is that it was always being a few powers were it didn't make any sense to pick anything else but those powers. Also, certain classes were underpowered rules wise which have been improved upon in 4E. As someone wrongly about these changes being all nerfs stated the Warlock actually got a boost in damage output that had been on the rogue for a while.

Optimizing implies there are stronger and weaker options. If there weren't, just give us pre-rolled characters and call the game Pokemon instead of D&D.

Uhh... You do know that your Pokemon analagoy is actually far more apt to compare to 3.5E/Pathfinder than to 4E.

 

[Banshee16]

I thought your point upthread was that legality was sufficient for non-underhandedness. But fair enough - underhandedness is in the eye of the beholder. But then some people might take a similar view of Paizo's building of their business on someone else's game design. (Though obviously many don't.)

Hmm.....I just don't see it. To make the case that Paizo is underhanded for building their business upon the backs of someone else's design, is to say that Samsung, Motorola, and numerous other companies are underhanded for building their business in smartphones on Android. Or, for that matter, Apple, basing their iOS based devices on MacOS X, which was in itself based on Unix (developed not by Apple).

I'm not sure it's even a valid argument. WotC created the D20 and OGL licenses. They allowed other companies to use them. They even laid off or fired many of the staff who *created* the "operating system" of D20. Many of those designers now work with Paizo. It's not immoral for them to work on it at all.

Banshee

 

[BryonD]

I don't think that I said that. Did I say that? Oh, yep, no, didn't say that.

What I did say is that I make ridiculous characters who are quite deserving of the occasional nerf, and I've never had to alter a character more than twice to adjust. I then went on to say that someone who builds a character who receives so many nerfs that he is forced to actually "respec" his character nine times over the course of the game doesn't have a lot of credibility when they tell me they didn't see those nerfs coming a mile away.

Yeah, that "had to" part is the thing.

Just strikes me as funny. But it really isn't a big deal.

But even with your reply here the idea of "had to" is still amusing.

 

[BryonD]

In the MMO industry, there is WoW, and then there is everyone else.

There used to be one of these in the tabletop RPG industry as well.

If we were to apply the model above to tabletop RPGs, D&D would clearly be the WoW of the bunch - it's the one that people play by default, and it's already got the word-of-mouth out there.

That is absolutely true.