Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Votan]

While I never played an Iron Crown Enterprises game, Rolemaster with several iterations, but all are actively played has been around almost as long as TSR - its still sold and played.

Yes, I play Rolemaster classic to this day and it is still essentially the same system it was in the 1980's.

 

[billd91]

Chess.

Checkers.

Scrabble.

I could go on.

Why are competitive board games even relevant in a discussion of interplayer balance in RPGs? The players aren't competing with each other. They're competing with challenges set up by the referee.

Balance questions are completely different between competitive and cooperative games.

 

[technoextreme]

Every goal has its cost. It's trivial to make a balanced party; just give them all the same characters. One of the complaints about 4e is that it's already gone too far that way. Giving players the options to play interesting, distinct things with varying degrees of complexity is also an admirable goal, but it tends to work against balance.

4E is as far as possible as from giving out the same characters as you can imagine which ironically is a sign that no one has ever actually played the game. The classes themselves are distinct in that you can have an entire party of the same class and have them operate wildly different.

I beg to differ. Balance between players is not desirable. I want my teams players to be maxed out sports-heroes and the other teams players to be suboptimal. Players clearly are not balanced. Which is why some are payed more than others.

Actually he's right. The sports analogy is the perfect example as to why 3.5E/Pathfinder and 4E differ. In sports teams you want balance between the players. You don't want to generally front load your team with players that can only specialize with one thing. It will leave gaping holes in your abilities that can be exploited. Now if you balance the abilities between players and try and adapt to their strengthes and weaknesses you will end up with a better all around team. 4E mimics this very well while with 3.5E you can ditch the concept entirely.

 

[gamerprinter]

From here:
Stuff...

As I mentioned up thread - I've never played any Iron Crown Enterprises games - Rolemaster included. So just how 'balanced' its rules are, are beyond my ken as I never played that game.

 

[Mournblade94]

I think you'll have a hard time arguing that last point. The games that tend to stick around are typically examples of the best-balanced mechanics out there.

I think Ralph Waldo Emmerson made a quote about game balance...

Ah yes,

Adhering only to game balance is the hobgoblin of little minds...

oh right... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. How easy it is to mix the two up.

Silly me, Ralph Waldo Emmerson never played RPG's...

*Joking really

 

[pemerton]

As I mentioned up thread - I've never played any Iron Crown Enterprises games - Rolemaster included. So just how 'balanced' its rules are, are beyond my ken as I never played that game.

Fair enough. I though you'd cited it as an instance of an enduring game which did not particularly worry about balance, but I may have misunderstood.

 

[Mournblade94]

I've met a lot of people willing to take 3.5 and play a Fighter partied with a friend's Druid, but I've never met someone who really wanted to play 3.5 in order to be the Fighter paired up with the Druid.

Well if I was in person you would have met one. Every group I was in the fighter always had fun. I happen to very much enjoy playing the fighter, even in 3.5. Now the point is moot because Pathfinder gave the fighter alot of love.

 

[Mournblade94]

I understand your opinion quite well, because your opinion is the same as pretty much everyone who has ever raised the "More Balance Means More Sameness!" flag.

Well then you need to present arguments that it is not sameness. Just saying "you don't know the difference between homogeneity and balance," does not convince anyone of anything.

There are a bunch of powers with cool names, that when it is brought down to numbers pretty much do the same thing within their pigeon holed 'roles'.

 

[gamerprinter]

Fair enough. I though you'd cited it as an instance of an enduring game which did not particularly worry about balance, but I may have misunderstood.

Actually I won a 'map contest' with the previous owners of ICE and won as a prize $75 worth of ICE product PDF downloads. I downloaded it, noticed the extensive use of tables, tables, tables - and my eyes glossed over. And most assuredly never got the angst to want to try to learn the game. Having never played it before, I soon learned that I never would play it - not my style of game.

Though I am sure it is fun for those who like that style.

 

[technoextreme]

I think Ralph Waldo Emmerson made a quote about game balance...

Ah yes,

Adhering only to game balance is the hobgoblin of little minds...

oh right... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. How easy it is to mix the two up.

Silly me, Ralph Waldo Emmerson never played RPG's...

Once again I'm not entirely sure if you actually even get the concept of game balance in that you keep on trying to argue how homogeneous it will be.

Well then you need to present arguments that it is not sameness. Just saying "you don't know the difference between homogeneity and balance," does not convince anyone of anything.

There are a bunch of powers with cool names, that when it is brought down to numbers pretty much do the same thing within their pigeon holed 'roles'.

Dude. We used the world's most perfect example of a sports team. The problem is that the points flew right over everyone's head as people started arguing that a perfect sports team would be one that would have everyone who exceled at everything. Also, once again have you actually played the game? Powers wildly vary in their ability to fulfill role criteria. The most hilarious of which is the Warlord whose power sets tactics range from suicidal to extremely cautious. I all ready told you this before with your complaint about blinding barrage but classes aren't pigeon holed into a single role.