Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Alzrius]

Let's not pretend that the sort of behavior we see from, say, a handful of WHFRPG players towards those who play other games is the same sort of vocal, insular, bitter attitude that seems to define the Pathfinder community's interaction with the rest of the gaming world (and even some of the interaction within its own community).

We don't need to look at Warhammer or Pathfinder forums to see diehard fans making vitriolic statements about other game systems. We've got plenty of those right here.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Contrary to Imaro's belief, I'm not diminishing Paizo, and I'm not using hyperbole. We've recently been giving our money to Paizo because WotC's no longer asking for it (except for our DDI account, which the 9 of us share). I'm pointing out that if WotC had released anything significant this summer, Paizo wouldn't be "outselling" them right now.

Pathfinder fan here and I have to agree with you. 4e is an established game in the middle of its run. Pathfinder is a newer game that has an expanding fanbase. If it *wasn't* selling more, there would be something seriously wrong. It doesn't say anything about the worth of either company; Pathfinder is simply at a point where they should be making more money than WotC.

 

[Dannager]

Thanks for the insights. I'd have to characterize the DDI as something more than an initial startup with maintenance costs, though. More like rolling out new but intergrated software every couple/few months. So it is more likely that the initial investment get s repeated periodically. Also, is the subscription rate now as high as ten dollars a month? Or is that the single month rate? I was under the impression that subscribers paid a lot less than ten bucks a month (six? five?).

$10 is the month-by-month rate. As with many subscription services, you receive a discount if you commit to a longer subscription.

Also, they don't roll out new software any more often than about once every six months or so. Apps they've introduced since 4e came out three years ago: Compendium, Old Character Builder, Old Monster Builder, New Character Builder, Virtual Table Top, and New Monster Builder. The latter two haven't seen full release yet.

 

[malkav666]

Congrats Paizo!

(long-winded post squished up below)

[sblock]

I have had a feeling for about a year now that Paizo was approaching D&D's book sales, but I don't usually offer conversation on my "feelings" as I have been known to be wrong once or twice in the past and being wrong sucks.

It was kind of weird in my area. When 4e released, there were only 4e games at my FLGS (well that and Warhammer, and a board game here and there in the game room). When the Pathfinder play test started there still were no groups running it at the shop. I tried the system with a different group I play with that meets about once a month as they were deeply unhappy with 4e to the point were we were kind of throwing darts as what to play, and they LOVED it. It was like a 3.5 that had bandages over most the bloody game breaking parts of the rules. Yeah, even with bandages some of those hurt rules still gimped up the game here and there, but the game no longer bled to death in those situations.

But more importantly it was familiar enough that the players could navigate and they immediately felt at home, and it was new enough that they felt like there were new concepts to explore. And the game masters in that group already had experience with challenging the players and working with custom material for the 3.5 rule set, so it did not take them long to get used to the changes, and if they forgot a change and used the 3.5 version of a rule it usually did not have an effect on game play (unless it was one of those wounded rules previously mentioned).

That group adopted PF int he beta stage. My weekly group that plays at the FLGS did not warm up as fast, but when they saw the actual release and the quality of the material they changed over within two months. There was finally a PF game at the store. Over time some of the 4e players and game store randoms played with our FLGS group (we let folks drop in to our game and bring extra characters and character sheets just for that event because its fun to play with new folks. Plus the owner lets us play in his very nice game space for free, I figure the least I could do is play games with his customers so that they may be inspired to buy something).

Late last year one of the other 4e groups turned PF, and the other two weekly groups turned this year. I can honestly say that I did not see any evangelism or harsh words towards 4e. Most of the PF groups in my area own 4e books and gave the system a really strong go. In fact, most of them were WOTC only D&D groups through the release of 4e. To most of the groups I have talked to that switched the general concensus I got from the was that Paizo just has a more robust, better produced TTRPG than WOTC at this point in time. But the mean nasty fans that were previously mentioned seem to me to mostly exist on the internet were there is little to no real consequence for being rude or condescending. And I would also like to point out that anything that is popular enough to have "fans" usually has its share of d-bag fans as well. I don't think Paizo owns the patent on that innovation. But that being said I still don't see the mean fans previously mentioned. The folks that play 4e and the folks that play PF in my area are all gamers and they all hang out with one another, and the environment is pretty friendly.

After playing both 4e and PF extensively it is my opinion and wish that WOTC release more of the board games they have been doing recently. If 4e had released in board game form like the Ravenloft game, and books had been made to "advance" the concepts presented in those games, I would still be playing it in addition to PF and would probably have many more WOTC D&D products than I currently do. I have bought, and will continue to buy the board games using the system presented in the Ravenloft game. It is my opinion that those games represent the spirit of 4e's design philosophy. And its really cool to unpack it make a few simple choices and get straight into the game. It does not scratch my long term fantasy campaign itch, but it takes real good care of the lets go kill some monsters and take their stuff itch. And no one has to prepare anything. Plus as an added bonus, those few folks in my area who are die-hard 4e or PF can play the game together. And the DM can take a day off. Heres to hoping WOTC keeps down the board game path. They are doing it right.

[/sblock]

TLDR: Most of the groups in my area who play PF started with 4e and I have not seen the negativity portrayed in previous posts. And I feel the board game rules system presented in WOTC board games like the Ravenloft game to be the best implementation of the 4e rules I have seen, and I wish they would make more of them.

And Paizo kicks ass.

That is all.


love,

malkav

 

[billd91]

Let's not pretend that the sort of behavior we see from, say, a handful of WHFRPG players towards those who play other games is the same sort of vocal, insular, bitter attitude that seems to define the Pathfinder community's interaction with the rest of the gaming world (and even some of the interaction within its own community).

It would be nice to be able to say that what we see is business as usual in RPG-land, but it's not.

You don't get out much, do you?

 

[Mark CMG]

$10 is the month-by-month rate. As with many subscription services, you receive a discount if you commit to a longer subscription.

I'd imagine most of those paying the full $10 are the people who only sgn up for a month once each new piece of software is released or upgraded.

Also, they don't roll out new software any more often than about once every six months or so. Apps they've introduced since 4e came out three years ago: Compendium, Old Character Builder, Old Monster Builder, New Character Builder, Virtual Table Top, and New Monster Builder. The latter two haven't seen full release yet.

So, six full software pieces, plus the various upgrades, then the actual maintenance. That's a lot more than introducing one web package then simply maintaining it, I suppose.

Didn't they can the full team at one point and basically start over from scratch?

 

[Reynard]

Let's not pretend that the sort of behavior we see from, say, a handful of WHFRPG players towards those who play other games is the same sort of vocal, insular, bitter attitude that seems to define the Pathfinder community's interaction with the rest of the gaming world (and even some of the interaction within its own community).

It would be nice to be able to say that what we see is business as usual in RPG-land, but it's not.

I think you are at best misremembering and at worst making stuff up. Why don't you link to some of this "sort of behavior" so that we can see how exceptional it is?

 

[Shemeska]

Didn't they can the full team at one point and basically start over from scratch?

Twice, sorta. The initial outsourcing attempt didn't produce anything functional, so they went with a new, in-house team and produced the compendium, offline builder, etc. They've since cycled through everyone who was part of that team either by layoffs or non-renewal of contracts. The folks there now sorta restarted when they produced the online-only tools to replace the offline ones.

 

[Stalker0]

To put some perspective on the numbers.

To have team of 10 programmers working for me, I have to pay about 3000 to 5000 dollars a day (if the programmers were okay working for low wages).

I will admit that I don't know the programmers market to me, but that seems very high.

Based on your number you are paying each programmer $500 a day. Now the normal work schedule in the US is 2000 manhours a year, or 250 days a year at 8 hours a day. Most coders I know work more than that, but for the sake of argument we will leave it at that.

So 250 days * 500 a day = $125,000 a year salary.

I could believe that the lead programmer on the team is making that much, but most coders are not making 6 figures.

Now at the 300 per day you mentioned, that is 75,000. That seems a lot more reasonable to me.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I wonder how much of Pathfinder's sales are based upon the evangelical nature of its player base.

That's an interesting issue.

I think grassroots marketing has helped PF in some ways. I also think it's a bit of a problem. PF has the reputation of not being beginner-friendly, and those "evangelists" are usually hard-core gamers. Personally, I find the online PF community a big turn-off, despite the game being a fine ruleset.

Hopefully, the "beginner Pathfinder" to be released will be a big step forward for the game and will attract new and different gamers.