Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder questions

[Wulf Ratbane]

Personally, I'm in favor of the reduction of the size bonus. I think the +4/size over medium is probably closer to reality than +1/size, but the latter makes for a better game.

I hear you: Better game trumps simulation.

But I'm not sure you have to make that choice in this instance.

I'd rather find something else to reduce the vulnerability of creatures like dragons to touch attacks.

The grapple bonus is not there to compensate for Huge creatures' vulnerabilities. Nevertheless their size bonus for grappling is already adequately compensated in other ways. You're not typically going to find Huge creatures with fewer than 8 HD, so depending on the creature type we're talking CR5 or so. You should have more than enough abilities (and the experience to use them) to deal with Huge grapplers by the time you meet them.

Do folks not use the -20 penalty for Improved Grab that's already in the RAW? You make it sound like grappling the PCs is a no-brainer move for the big critters, and I've never found that to be the case. A full-on no-penalty grapple-- despite it being "unbeatable"-- is still pretty situational.

 

[qstor]

There's also some Pathfinder Chronicles on the Pathfinder setting.

Mike

 

[humble minion]

The grapple bonus is not there to compensate for Huge creatures' vulnerabilities. Nevertheless their size bonus for grappling is already adequately compensated in other ways. You're not typically going to find Huge creatures with fewer than 8 HD, so depending on the creature type we're talking CR5 or so. You should have more than enough abilities (and the experience to use them) to deal with Huge grapplers by the time you meet them.

Do folks not use the -20 penalty for Improved Grab that's already in the RAW? You make it sound like grappling the PCs is a no-brainer move for the big critters, and I've never found that to be the case. A full-on no-penalty grapple-- despite it being "unbeatable"-- is still pretty situational.

Problem is that many huge creatures with improved grapple ARE no-brainers, in the most literal sense. A purple worm or a t-rex isn't always going to go with the most tactically astute option - it's just going to focus on eating the yummy PC it has in its mouth. Which gives the rest of the party free rein to beat up on said critter, but that's all kinda moot if grappled-guy gets squished or eaten in the meantime.

Personally what I'd like to see is a rule allowing small creatures to take advantage of the relative clumsiness of large creatures in-close. You know, like in all the movies where the hero climbs up on top of the dragon/monster/hutt/whatever, and runs up its back and sticks his sword in its ear as it flails ineffectually at its own head.

Perhaps some sort of attack penalty for creatures with reach over 10ft when they attempt to attack adjacent creatures? Or a dex-vs-dex grapple option, only usable by creatures more than two sizes smaller than their opponents, in which size bonuses to grapple aren't applied and size penalties to AC are used instead? This represents the 'jumping on top of the big slow hulk' option - obviously it'd be impossible to pin an opponent like this, but perhaps success on this roll could allow the little guy to attack the big guy as normal, move along with him (cos you're standing on his head), and be harder to hit.

From a genre point of view imho, a big creature should be really, really tough if you're fighting at ITS optimal combat reach, but coming in close where it can't use its reach, leverage, and weaponry properly should switch the advantage around. You're still stuffed if it DOES manage to grab you though. Legolas had to get on top of the mumakil to kill it - he didn't run around hacking at its ankles...

(And this'd finally give all those fighters a REASON to put skill ranks into Climb - it's a class skill, but who ever uses it after about level 10 when everyone flies or dim-doors everywhere?)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Problem is that many huge creatures with improved grapple ARE no-brainers, in the most literal sense. A purple worm or a t-rex isn't always going to go with the most tactically astute option - it's just going to focus on eating the yummy PC it has in its mouth. Which gives the rest of the party free rein to beat up on said critter, but that's all kinda moot if grappled-guy gets squished or eaten in the meantime.

The change to the size modifier is not going to prevent you from being eaten by purple worms and tyrannosaurs. It's probably not going to prevent you from being eaten by anything that was designed to eat things in 3e.

Here's why I think so:

Purple Worm
Grapple by RAW: +40, including +16 for size
Grapple by PF: +32, including the reduced +8 size

It looks like the PCs might pick up another 4 or 5 points on the CMD, depending on how it's calculated.

The comparable 12th level fighter will have a CMD of 10 + 12 (BAB) + 6 (STR), maybe +4 deflection. Total CMD = ~32.

Huh. Worm rolls a 1, he's got a 33. You're still hosed.

It's also no longer an opposed roll, which by RAW gave you a potential swing of 19 points (I roll a 20, Worm rolls a 1). Against the static defense, one roll gets to Take 10. No more getting lucky.

Tyrannosaurus
RAW: +30 (including +8 for Huge size)
PF: +24 (including +2 reduced size mod)

Comparable 8th level fighter CMD = 10 + 8 (BAB) + 6 (STR) + 3 deflection. (I think I'm being generous with a couple points there.) CMD = 27

That's a little better I suppose. T-Rex gets a 25 if he rolls a 1. Still beats you on a 4+.

The math behind BAB and grapple is based on HD, and big, dumb critters have LOTS of hit dice for their CR. Their HD will be out in advance of the PCs by more than enough to compensate for their 3/4 BAB progression-- and God help you if it's a magical beast or dragon (with full BAB progression).

(Generally speaking, most monsters have more HD than they do CR.)

I'm not sold on this change if the supposed impetus was because big critters were tough grapplers.

Marginal gain, with new compatibility/conversion issues.

 

[Wicht]

Not to nitpik Wulf but a grapple roll is a combat roll and therefore the roll of a 1 is an automatic failure. Thus a 5% chance of not being eaten by the Purple Worm.

Edit: I'm pretty sure that the only rolls where 1 is not an automatic failure is still skill checks.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The change to the size modifier is not going to prevent you from being eaten by purple worms and tyrannosaurs. It's probably not going to prevent you from being eaten by anything that was designed to eat things in 3e.

Here's why I think so:

Purple Worm
Grapple by RAW: +40, including +16 for size
Grapple by PF: +32, including the reduced +8 size

It looks like the PCs might pick up another 4 or 5 points on the CMD, depending on how it's calculated.

The comparable 12th level fighter will have a CMD of 10 + 12 (BAB) + 6 (STR), maybe +4 deflection. Total CMD = ~32.

Huh. Worm rolls a 1, he's got a 33. You're still hosed.

It's also no longer an opposed roll, which by RAW gave you a potential swing of 19 points (I roll a 20, Worm rolls a 1). Against the static defense, one roll gets to Take 10. No more getting lucky.

Tyrannosaurus
RAW: +30 (including +8 for Huge size)
PF: +24 (including +2 reduced size mod)

Comparable 8th level fighter CMD = 10 + 8 (BAB) + 6 (STR) + 3 deflection. (I think I'm being generous with a couple points there.) CMD = 27

That's a little better I suppose. T-Rex gets a 25 if he rolls a 1. Still beats you on a 4+.

The math behind BAB and grapple is based on HD, and big, dumb critters have LOTS of hit dice for their CR. Their HD will be out in advance of the PCs by more than enough to compensate for their 3/4 BAB progression-- and God help you if it's a magical beast or dragon (with full BAB progression).

(Generally speaking, most monsters have more HD than they do CR.)

I'm not sold on this change if the supposed impetus was because big critters were tough grapplers.

Marginal gain, with new compatibility/conversion issues.

I didn't think yet about the consequences of "taking 10" for one side in this context. You are absolutely right, grapple becomes more "reliable" this way, and it makes the modifiers even more dangerous.

That is a general problem with most game systems, in a way. You want a certain degree of reliability, but you also want to have a wide range of "meaningful" modifiers. (It is notable that games like Warhammer that use percentile dice basically always increase modifiers in 5 point steps...)

 

[dm4hire]

You can't take 10 in a combat. You also can only take 10 on skill related checks, unless you have a feat that gives you the option. CMB is a combat action or essentially an attack.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We are talking about the "CMB". You don't roll for it, you have a 10 + modifiers. Similar to AC or 4E defenses.

 

[dm4hire]

CMB or CMD? I thought CMD was the 10 + Modifiers.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or CMD? Acrynom confusion. Whatever, the 10+Modifiers thing that is used to defend against grapple, trips and so on. The one you do not roll as defender.