D&D 4E Pathfinder Rules and 4e Monsters?

[IronWolf]

You're better off finding a 3.5 version of the monster or using one of the gazillion 3.5 monster books, some of them superior to 4e MMs in every respect (Advanced Bestiary, Tome of Horrors I-III, Book of Fiends).

Excellent recommendations for 3.5 monster books - some good ones listed there.

 

[freyar]

I figured with a CR Converting table I could pick up any 4e MM and just run it on the fly. calculate CMB, and make them roll for saves at -10 (since it isnt a static defense in PFRPG). As opposed to having to rebuild a monster.

Would it not be that simple?

Well, I don't really know 4e myself, but people say the math is different than 3.X/PF. That means you might have hp and, say, attack bonus at the standards for very different CRs. And I'm sure there wouldn't be any reliable "CR conversion table"; you'd have to eyeball each one. That's not always so hard, but it takes some experience.

 

[jasonbostwick]

I've thought about this before because I really like the monster formatting in 4E, but much prefer Pathfinder style character creation. It's kind of a pipe dream though, and I've given up on it because of how difficult the conversion is.

The numbers don't really match up for easy conversion, and I'll give an example by comparing the Kobolds from each game. In each system, 4-5 Kobolds would be a standard challenge for a first level party.

The basic Kobold from the first 4E Monster Manual is the Kobold Skirmisher.
These are its basic stats, written in pathfinder terminology.

HP: 27
AC: 15 (Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +3)
Attack: +6, 1d8 damage
Special Abilities: Sneak Attack +1d8, can 5ft-step and move in same turn

Compare these to Pathfinder's Kobold Warrior:

HP: 5
AC: 15 (Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +1)
Attack: +1, 1d6-1 damage.
Special Abilities: Light Sensitivity, Skill Bonuses


The numbers don't really match up - 4E Kobolds have about as many HP as an ogre does in Pathfinder, and hit as hard if they can get Sneak Attack.


There are also a bunch of terms in 4E that don't really translate over to Pathfinder. While the at-will/encounter actions don't really matter because they don't interact with the PCs at all, the various status effects and conditions that 4E monsters deal out don't really map closely to Pathfinder conditions.

 

[Sylrae]

Hmm. Well crap. There goes that idea.

Maybe some day I'll revisit this and come up with a table of conversion, but it's apparently much more involved than I originally thought.

I just figured the 4e MMs are really readily available and I can grab them at my FLGS whereas the 3.5 Monster books are harder to come by for hard copies.

 

[Henry]

Hmm. Well crap. There goes that idea.

Maybe some day I'll revisit this and come up with a table of conversion, but it's apparently much more involved than I originally thought.

I just figured the 4e MMs are really readily available and I can grab them at my FLGS whereas the 3.5 Monster books are harder to come by for hard copies.

One suggestion - purchase Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games. One section involved "default" monster stats for each level - you could use this for easier monster stats and flavor them for use. Ben Durbin has put a lot of work into this, and it looks really good.

 

[Sylrae]

I agree. I have that one. There is something similar in the Pathfinder Bestiary for monster generation. I was just hoping I could easily pick up a 4e Monster book (since there are so many and my FLGS has so many of them, and quickly backconvert them the same way I can quickly convert 3.5 monsters.)

 

[Voadam]

From the unerreated 4e DMG here are basic monster stats generalized from the quick generation table:

HP 8+con+(levelx8)
AC Level +14
Other defenses level +12
Attack level +5
Attack vs non AC = Level +3.

At will damage goes by a chart, d10+3 at 1-3 levels up to 3d8+10 at 38-30.
For limited attacks damage this went from 2d10+3 to 5d10+9.

These were sort of the baselines with slightly different baselines depending on monster role. For damage these were the medium damage charts with low and high damage charts as well.

As 4e went on the damage got higher and AC and defenses got a little lower and these numbers didn't match up well to the MM entries from the start, but they are a good starting place for you to examine compared to the PF base monster creation number charts.

 

[Voadam]

There are also a bunch of terms in 4E that don't really translate over to Pathfinder. While the at-will/encounter actions don't really matter because they don't interact with the PCs at all, the various status effects and conditions that 4E monsters deal out don't really map closely to Pathfinder conditions.

Which ones are you thinking of? IMO most work fine in either edition or can be applied straight when making a new monster.

For instance it would be fine IMO to have a PF monster that did "Daze save ends" with a power which reduced the victim to doing standard actions each round until he made a special DC 10 check at the end of his turn.

 

[Argyle King]

It wouldn't be impossible to convert between the two systems, but it would generally take more work than you'd probably want if you're looking to 'convert on the fly.'

A lot of the 4E monsters were based on 3E monsters anyway; some of them even still use the same artwork.

You should be able to find 3E books fairly easily if you don't mind ordering online. My advice would be to skip the 3rd Edition Monster Manual 2. It has some interesting creatures, but it was never fully updated to 3.5, and -in my experience; from what I remember- the CRs in that book aren't very accurate. On the other end of the spectrum, I highly recommend 3rd Edition's Monster Manual 3. The 3rd Edition Draconomicon is also an awesome book, but only if you like dragons and dragon themed creatures.

 

[jasonbostwick]

Which ones are you thinking of? IMO most work fine in either edition or can be applied straight when making a new monster.

Dazed, prone, stun, forced movement, and marks are the big ones that stand out.

Dazed, prone, and stun are much more severe in Pathfinder, so the frequency with which they are used by Monsters might make them a bit more challenging.
Forced Movement effects are less common in PF and usually require CMB rolls.
Marking isn't really present in PF at all, but would be fairly simple to transfer over.

You could rework it (as you are suggesting) so that the powers applied the 4E effects of the condition rather than applying the actual PF condition, but that would be a bit harder to do on the fly and would require a lot of knowledge of 4E's mechanics.

I think it is definitely possible to do the conversion, but I think it would be a lot more work than just picking up one of the 3.5 MMs.