D&D 4E Pathfinder Rules and 4e Monsters?

[Sylrae]

hmm. So converting would work for the few with no 3.5 equivalent, but running them "On the Fly" isn't going to so much.

Alright guys. Well, it was a nice idea when I started this thread. lol.

 

[Voadam]

From the unerreated 4e DMG here are basic monster stats generalized from the quick generation table:

HP 8+con+(levelx8)
AC Level +14
Other defenses level +12
Attack level +5
Attack vs non AC = Level +3.

At will damage goes by a chart, d10+3 at 1-3 levels up to 3d8+10 at 38-30.
For limited attacks damage this went from 2d10+3 to 5d10+9.

These were sort of the baselines with slightly different baselines depending on monster role. For damage these were the medium damage charts with low and high damage charts as well.

As 4e went on the damage got higher and AC and defenses got a little lower and these numbers didn't match up well to the MM entries from the start, but they are a good starting place for you to examine compared to the PF base monster creation number charts.

Comparing to the Pathfinder Chart

Step 2: Target Statistics
Once you have a creature's type and CR determined, use Table: Monster Statistics by CR to determine its approximate statistics by CR. These values are a rough guideline only. You will notice that many of the existing monsters in this book do not follow these guidelines exactly. Most monsters excel in one of these areas, usually in the amount of damage dealt, but lag in one or two other areas to help balance them out. When referring to Table: Monster Statistics by CR, keep the following points in mind.

CR: This is the approximate CR of the monster. This number might change as design progresses.

Hit Points: This is the approximate hit point total for the monster. Note that creatures with particularly high Armor Classes or saving throws, or a number of resistances, might have a lower number. Outsiders and constructs typically have lower hit point totals.

Armor Class: This is the average Armor Class for a creature of this CR. When it comes time to design the creature's protections, keep this number in mind. Creatures with hit points above the average often have lower Armor Class values to compensate.

High Attack: This is the average total attack bonus for a creature of this CR. This value is for creatures that are primarily melee or ranged combatants. Creatures with a higher than normal average damage typically have a lower attack value to compensate.

Low Attack: This is the average total attack bonus for a creature of this CR that does not rely upon melee or ranged attacks to deal damage. This includes most creatures that rely on spells and spell-like abilities in combat.

Average Damage: This is the average amount of damage dealt by a creature of this CR if all of its attacks are successful. To determine a creature's average damage, add the average value for all of the damage dice rolled (as determined by Table: Average Die Results) to the damage modifier for each attack.

A creature that relies on melee or ranged weapons in combat should have average damage within the range of high and low damage.

A creature with higher than normal attack bonuses will often deal lower damage, while a creature with lower than normal attack bonuses will often deal higher damage.

Primary Ability DC: This is the average difficulty class (DC) for any spells, spell-like abilities, and special abilities (such as breath weapons) possessed by a creature of this CR that relies on such attacks in combat. If an ability is particularly powerful, it might have a lower DC to compensate.

Secondary Ability DC: This is the average DC for spells and special abilities for a creature that does not rely on such attacks in combat. Generally, a DC should not be lower than this number.

Good Save: This is the average saving throw bonus for a creature of this CR if the saving throw is one of the creature's good saving throws.

Poor Save: This is the average saving throw bonus for a creature of this CR if the saving throw is one of the creature's poor saving throws.


Table: Monster Statistics by CR
CR Hit Points Armor Class High Attack Low Attack Average Damage Primary Ability DC Secondary Ability DC Good Save Poor Save
High Low
1/2 10 11 1 0 4 3 11 8 3 0
1 15 12 2 1 7 5 12 9 4 1
2 20 14 4 3 10 7 13 9 5 1
3 30 15 6 4 13 9 14 10 6 2
4 40 17 8 6 16 12 15 10 7 3
5 55 18 10 7 20 15 15 11 8 4
6 70 19 12 8 25 18 16 11 9 5
7 85 20 13 10 30 22 17 12 10 6
8 100 21 15 11 35 26 18 12 11 7
9 115 23 17 12 40 30 18 13 12 8
10 130 24 18 13 45 33 19 13 13 9
11 145 25 19 14 50 37 20 14 14 10
12 160 27 21 15 55 41 21 15 15 11
13 180 28 22 16 60 45 21 15 16 12
14 200 29 23 17 65 48 22 16 17 12
15 220 30 24 18 70 52 23 16 18 13
16 240 31 26 19 80 60 24 17 19 14
17 270 32 27 20 90 67 24 18 20 15
18 300 33 28 21 100 75 25 18 20 16
19 330 34 29 22 110 82 26 19 21 16
20 370 36 30 23 120 90 27 20 22 17

So taking a 10th level creature as an example.

4e 10th level:
88+con hp, AC 24, saves 22 (+12 in 3e), Attack +15, attack vs saves is +13, and I'd have to look up damage on the chart.

For Pathfinder CR 10:
130hp, AC 24, saves +13, +9, attack +18 or +13, DC 19 or 13, damage 45 or 33.

The damage will be a lot lower for the 4e creature but the stats are fairly close overall.

 

[Voadam]

Two more comparisons from the charts, 1st level and 20th level

4e 1st level monster
hp 16+con, AC 15, saves 13(+3), Attack +6, save attack +3(DC 13), damage d10+3 and 2d10+3 for limted attacks.

PF CR 1
hp 15, AC 12, saves +4, +1, attack +2 or +1, save attack DC 12 or 9, damage 7 or 9.

4e 20th level monster:
168 +con, AC 34, saves 32(+22), Attack +25, Save attack +23(DC 33), damage has to be looked up.

PF 20 CR
hp 370, AC 36, saves +22 or +17, attack +30 or +23, Save attack DC 27 or 20, damage 120 or 90.

So at low levels 4e monsters have more hp and do more damage but PF pass them up on both before CR 10. There is a little difference in saves with 4e being more offensive, but AC and saves and attacks are pretty close.

 

[Stormtower]

I second Henry's suggestion to give Trailblazer a thorough read. Its discussion of the "spine" of probability in 3.X/OGL and what makes a fun monster is particularly worthwhile.

Regarding the porting of 4E monster into PFRPG, I have found that just informing my monster design in PF by 4E's examples works very well. In particular, the use of swift, immediate and free actions to play catchup to the party's total number of actions makes monsters feel more challenging. Ongoing damage is also easy to add in, since PF uses a very similar bleed mechanic as part of its core rules now.

In my opinion, the flavor of 4E monsters is best captured by this triumverate of design: 1. ongoing damage, 2. damaging attacks with status riders, 3. swift/minor/immediate actions and reactions which occur in response to PC triggers (i.e., it is hit by an attack, becomes bloodied, a PC moves adjacent, etc.).

Between Trailblazer's work on elite/solo monsters for 3.X and some 4E design flavor, you should be covered.

 

[Aus_Snow]

In my experience as GM, it's actually very easy to come up with formulae, to facilitate rapid conversion from one system to another. And that's been D&D -> something else totally other, or the other way 'round, or between two other differing games altogether. So, essentially one "D&D" to another? Feh.

In this particular case though, I wouldn't bother. *shrug* There's always the Pathfinder Bestiary, for most things, as well as guidelines for creation/modification, etc. Then, there's the wealth of 3e/d20/OGL stuff. Eesh.

But hey, good luck with it, should you go ahead with it.