Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Sneak Peeks (Old thread)

[Keefe the Thief]

There is no boundary-pushing required for casters to dominate mid- to high-level 3.5 gameplay.

In fact, boundary pushing is required for non-spellcasting classes to have the same level of impact on the game itself at these levels. Without boundary-pushing, those classes are left in the dust be even mediocre spellcasters.

God, you reminded me of my Eberron game: the druid stopped calling his animal companion and using shapechange after a couple of sessions because he was embarrased to constantly outdamage the melee guys.

 

[Twowolves]

Sounds about right to me. You get charm person, read thoughts, etc. Fighters get to fight. And nothing else. So they should utterly dominate all combat. They should be the toughest, and deal the most damage, and impose status effects with basic attacks, at will.

Then you should be playing something other than D&D. I know I certainly wouldn't want to play a caster if all I got to do was buff the fighters before a fight and then cower in fear the rest of the time. And since they streamlined the combat maneuvers, fighters already are the master of trip, bull rush, disarm, sunder, grappling and overrunning.

Or give them 8 skill points and other abilities, so they do stuff out of combat (not that it's allowed to be as good as spells though). Right now they cant even be fully trained in your typical "fantasy action hero" skills (jump, climb, ride and swim) with their stupid 2 skill points, another crappy design decision.

Are you still talking about Pathfinder, or 3.5 D&D? Because in Pathfinder, they consolidated the skill lists and expanded the fighter's class skills, so this really isn't such an issue anymore.

This is a fallacy I'm incredibly sick of. The day ends when the casters are out of spells. No one presses on without healing, as fighters cant even stand up to a full attack without constant ass wiping from a cleric. If 1 HD critters dropped out of a tube constantly and allowed the fighter to win initiative, yeah, I guess high level fighters would have vast staying power. But in reality, their staying power is the same as the cleric's.

I see. In your experience, the adventures never have time constraints, and the antagonists just sit around and wait for the PCs to come kill them. Exciting.

I know the designers generally favor the same "caster supremacy" ideals which have plagued D&D for 30+ years. Unless spells are gutted 9they wont be), the few bones thrown towards non-casters dont really matter.

It's now apparent to me that you really have not paid any attention to the Pathfinder beta playtest, and are not really in a position to debate the proposed changes. Many of the most problem spells have been modified heavily (not "gutted", but it's obvious you only want utility spells in the game, and these to only be used outside of combat), and the non-casting classes have had more than just a few bones thrown their way (sneak attack now affects almost everything, for example). Sorry they haven't made the game YOU want to play, but Pathfinder looks like the game I want to play.

 

[MrMyth]

I see. In your experience, the adventures never have time constraints, and the antagonists just sit around and wait for the PCs to come kill them. Exciting.

I'm not sure that is an entirely legitimate rebuttal of the point - some adventures are time-sensitive, while others put the burden of action on the PCs. Most campaigns, in my experience, tend to be a mix of the two.

It doesn't have to be a problem for all campaigns to make it an issue worth addressing - even if it only has an impact on half the games out there, that is more than enough to make it worth fixing. Some of the changes should certainly help with it.... but I'm not sure they will be significant enough to fully fix the problem, in the long term.

 

[Twowolves]

I'm not sure that is an entirely legitimate rebuttal of the point - some adventures are time-sensitive, while others put the burden of action on the PCs. Most campaigns, in my experience, tend to be a mix of the two.

It doesn't have to be a problem for all campaigns to make it an issue worth addressing - even if it only has an impact on half the games out there, that is more than enough to make it worth fixing. Some of the changes should certainly help with it.... but I'm not sure they will be significant enough to fully fix the problem, in the long term.

In my experience, NPC's rarely sit around in dungeons waiting to be killed, despite the way most adventures are written. Especially if the party just ran in, nuked 3-4 rooms and then pulled back to wait 23 hours, 45 minutes to repeat the process. Sending out raid parties, or just following the party back to their base camp to strike at their most vulnerable time is not only a viable strategy, it's what any foe with double-digit Int would do. Fighters fight just was well at 10, 2 and 4 as they did at 8AM. They don't need 8 hours of rest and an hour of study hall to hack things down. Just because some groups fall into the rut of the "15 minute workday" doesn't mean it's a universal problem that requires the utter nerfing of combat spells or the elevation of fighters to god-like power levels.

 

[MrMyth]

Just because some groups fall into the rut of the "15 minute workday" doesn't mean it's a universal problem that requires the utter nerfing of combat spells or the elevation of fighters to god-like power levels.

Well, I think assuming that the only solution is such an extreme one (or portraying any possible solutions as such extreme measures) is the best way to really address the issue - nor is it a great approach to say that it doesn't bother your group, so isn't worth fixing. There clearly are many for whom it is an issue.

 

[Twowolves]

Well, I think assuming that the only solution is such an extreme one (or portraying any possible solutions as such extreme measures) is the best way to really address the issue - nor is it a great approach to say that it doesn't bother your group, so isn't worth fixing. There clearly are many for whom it is an issue.

And this is the part where I say "define 'many'", and point out how a few posts by a few vocal people doesn't necessarily constitute a lot of people in the grand scheme of things...

But it's easier to say that if you are one of those who think that an adventurer's day lasts 15 minutes and that fighters are the piss-boys for spellcasters, the game for you is perhaps 4th ed, not 3.x/Pathfinder. Go play that and quit posting to a thread about Pathfinder.

 

[Panzeh]

One of the problems with respect to spellcasters is the ability to rest in completely safe places, rope trick, for example. Once you have this, really, resting isn't the same kind of problem as you might think.

 

[AllisterH]

In my experience, NPC's rarely sit around in dungeons waiting to be killed, despite the way most adventures are written. Especially if the party just ran in, nuked 3-4 rooms and then pulled back to wait 23 hours, 45 minutes to repeat the process. Sending out raid parties, or just following the party back to their base camp to strike at their most vulnerable time is not only a viable strategy, it's what any foe with double-digit Int would do. Fighters fight just was well at 10, 2 and 4 as they did at 8AM. They don't need 8 hours of rest and an hour of study hall to hack things down. Just because some groups fall into the rut of the "15 minute workday" doesn't mean it's a universal problem that requires the utter nerfing of combat spells or the elevation of fighters to god-like power levels.

That doesn't actually solve the problem though if you think about it all the way through...

Let's assume for the moment we have wands of CLW so that the fighters can fight practically all day long...

Fighters are great against the so-called trash encounters, basically encounters at there level or level + 1 but many DMs hate using such encounters since the party is not really threatened and really the only cost in resources is the GP that will be used up in healing via the wand of cure light wounds....

Many DMs respond by having only fights where there is a decent chance of death involved, however, these encounters tend to ones where you increasingly need a MU to at least provide buffs and or actual support in battle.

However, this kind of is at odds with the "attack the party while they're resting" since this WILL result in a TPK even though all the DM wants is to have the illusion of death...

Personally, I've never thought of the 15 minute adventuring day as caused by PLAYERS but actually caused by DMs IMO

 

[Twowolves]

One of the problems with respect to spellcasters is the ability to rest in completely safe places, rope trick, for example. Once you have this, really, resting isn't the same kind of problem as you might think.

Rope Trick is pretty easy to deal with, since the portal is noticeable: build a big bonfire under it. The other spells in the series can be dispelled, IIRC. Talk about a rude awakening.

But yes, you are right. Too often the DMs will let the party rest just anywhere and it's perfectly safe to do so. It smacks of "save game" mentality. Once, when running the Temple of Elemental Evil, I had the High Priest of Earth follow the party back to Homlet after they partially raided into his temple. 4 earth elementals and all the zombies he could animate made nice work of several buildings in the village, including the Inn of the Welcome Wench. Needless to say, the party wasn't quite sure they were "safe" in town anymore, and the populace wasn't too happy with them for "bringing their work home with them".

 

[Twowolves]

Fighters are great against the so-called trash encounters, basically encounters at there level or level + 1 but many DMs hate using such encounters since the party is not really threatened and really the only cost in resources is the GP that will be used up in healing via the wand of cure light wounds....

Many DMs respond by having only fights where there is a decent chance of death involved, however, these encounters tend to ones where you increasingly need a MU to at least provide buffs and or actual support in battle.

But recall that the DMG has a breakdown of how many encounters should be within each range of ELs, with only 5% being extremely easy or extremely hard, and the majority being around the average party level +/-1. So as written the fighters should be able to handle a lot of the encounters the party is likely to face. However you are right, it would seem that in some cases the problem lies with the DMs and their encounter-building strategies and not entirely with the players.

D&D is at its core a team-oriented game, and letting the party rest safely every time the casters are out of spells is the same as having one player monopolize the table with his character hogging the spotlight. The DM should no more let the casters dominate the game like this than he should let the party bard spend an hour seducing the cute serving wench. Spell Resistance was originally implemented back in 1st ed to keep the fighters useful at high levels, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, it should still serve that role (thus the problem many have with "conjurations-that-are-evokations-that-avoid-SR"). Random encounters and intelligent, organized enemies help the non-casters share the spotlight a bit more as well.