Pathfinder 1E [Pathfinder] The Old School New School Fighter

[NotAYakk]

Champion
BaB: +1/level
HD: d12
Proficient with all weapons and armor.
All saves are good.

         Weapon    Extremely  Second    Physical       Combat
Level    Mastery   Tough      Chance    Perfection     Mastery
 1        +2        +0         -           -              -
 2        +2        +2         -           -              -
 3        +4        +2         -           -              -
 4        +4        +4         -           -              -
 5        +6        +4         -           -              -
 6        +6        +6         1           -              -
 7        +8        +6         1           -             +1
 8        +8        +8         1         +2/-/-          +1
 9        +10       +8         1         +2/-/-          +1
10        +10       +10        1         +2/-/-          +1
11        +15       +10        1         +2/+2/-         +1
12        +15       +15        2         +2/+2/-         +1
13        +20       +15        2         +2/+2/-         +2
14        +20       +20        2         +4/+2/+2        +2
15        +30       +20        2         +4/+2/+2        +2
16        +30       +25        2         +4/+2/+2        +3
17        +40       +25        2         +6/+4/+4        +3
18        +40       +30        3         +6/+4/+4        +3
19        +50       +30        3         +6/+4/+4        +4
20        +50       +35        3         +6/+6/+6        +5

Full BaB. High Saves. d12 HD. 4 skill points per level.

Features: (all are ex)
Weapon Mastery: The first time in a round that you hit with a weapon, add your Weapon Mastery damage to the amount of damage you deal.

Extremely Tough: You are granted temporary HP equal to your Extremely Tough value in the table above at the start of each of your turns.

Second Chance: On each of your turns, you may cause a d20 roll to be rerolled. This may be your roll, or someone elses that affects you. The number of second chances you get is on the above table. Your use of second chances resets at the end of your turn.

Physical Perfection: You gain an enhancement bonus to your physical stats (str, con and dex) equal to the values in the above table. The first time you gain a bonus in a given column, you pick which stat is applies to.

Combat Mastery: When wearing armor, shields or weapons, you may consider your weapon to have an enhancement bonus equal to your Combat Mastery value. In addition, you gain a deflection bonus to AC and an enhancement bonus to will, fortitude and reflex equal to your Combat Mastery value.

---

This class isn't 'featureless' -- it has 5 features.

Two of the features help make it less dependent on equipment and buffs from other party members.

The Weapon Mastery gives it an ability to deal damage. It applies once per turn, because that way I can make it larger, and it is easier to use.

Extremely Tough makes it able to actually take damage. It isn't DR, just auto-replacing temporary HP.

Second Chance both makes the character increasingly accurate, and tough to take out with a lucky roll. It is an easy mechanic to understand -- "I don't like that roll, roll it again". It resets at the end of your turn, so you can use up your second chances defending yourself first -- and use the leftover ones to punish your foes.

 

[Nellisir]

Champion
BaB: +1/level
HD: d12
Proficient with all weapons and armor.
All saves are good.

Heck, I'd take this for one level and then multiclass into fighter.

 

[eyebeams]

Argh, damage! I knew I forgot about something that would be essential. I don't think a bonus at level 1 is in order, but 4/8/12/16/20, that could work. And the bonus to hit per 4 levels shouldn't (IMO) be literally a bonus to BAB. I wouldn't want them getting extra attacks ahead of everyone else, really. And their saves should be high enough anyway, IMO. Then again, maybe I'm just well and truly indoctrinated, thanks to d20 in general. . .

Let's see. . .

[b]Level	BAB	Base saves	AC and to hit bonus	Weapon damage bonus[/b]
1st	+1	+2		+0			+0
2nd	+2	+3		+0			+0
3rd	+3	+3		+0			+0
4th	+4	+4		+1			+2
5th	+5	+4		+1			+2
6th	+6	+5		+1			+2
7th	+7	+5		+1			+2
8th	+8	+6		+2			+4
9th	+9	+6		+2			+4
10th	+10	+7		+2			+4
11th	+11	+7		+2			+4
12th	+12	+8		+3			+6
13th	+13	+8		+3			+6
14th	+14	+9		+3			+6
15th	+15	+9		+3			+6
16th	+16	+10		+4			+8
17th	+17	+10		+4			+8
18th	+18	+11		+4			+8
19th	+19	+11		+4			+8
20th	+20	+12		+5			+10

[b]Level	BAB	Base saves	AC bonus	Weapon damage bonus[/b]
1st	+2	+3		+1		+2
2nd	+3	+4		+1		+2
3rd	+4	+4		+1		+2
4th	+6	+6		+2		+4
5th	+7	+6		+2		+4
6th	+8	+7		+2		+4
7th	+9	+7		+2		+4
8th	+11	+9		+3		+6
9th	+12	+9		+3		+6
10th	+13	+10		+3		+6
11th	+14	+10		+3		+6
12th	+16	+12		+4		+8
13th	+17	+12		+4		+8
14th	+18	+13		+4		+8
15th	+19	+13		+4		+8
16th	+21	+15		+5		+10
17th	+22	+15		+5		+10
18th	+23	+16		+5		+10
19th	+24	+16		+5		+10
20th	+26	+18		+6		+12

Interesting. Just helps me sometimes to see them like that. Hm. . .

It is interesting. Plus, early extra attacks sounds neat to me even if they aren't strictly BtB for d20/Pathfinder design principles. Again, competing with characters that have a lot of "smackdown" abilities or topped-up complex feat trees is the challenge, but without making basic capabilities too good.

I wonder if there would be an interest in stripped-and-boosted versions of other classes, with far fewer special abilities but more potent base abilities.

 

[Remathilis]

So, still too weak?

Not at all.

First off, you've given the champion proficiency in a bunch of additional weapons which cost a feat each; including some of the games best (hello spiked chain!) While a traditional fighter may have one exotic weapon, there is no reason for this guy not to find grab them all!

Second, without seeing the final pathfinder fighter, its hard to say exactly what they are giving up. So far as written they are PERFECT 1st level dips for fighters, barbarians, paladins, and anyone else who wants to be a great combatant. At first level, you're getting two better saves, a dozen or so "free" weapon proficiencies, better skills, and a bump to hit/dmg/ac/saves all for the "cost" of a bonus feat. I'd certainly want to play a champion1/fighter19!

This class suffers the same problem ranger and paladin did in 3.0; great abilities to grab at first level, then go onto your "real" class.

Personally, if the "simple class" is so great; it shouldn't need all sort of incentives to be played. It should be on par with the fighter. Keep the bumped HD, but keep the same skills/skill points, saves, and weapon proficiencies as a fighter. Also, I'd make the bump a flat +1 to AC/Save/Attack/Damage every 5 levels (unless your ruling this doesn't stack with magical items).

my 2 cp

 

[eyebeams]

Not at all.

First off, you've given the champion proficiency in a bunch of additional weapons which cost a feat each; including some of the games best (hello spiked chain!) While a traditional fighter may have one exotic weapon, there is no reason for this guy not to find grab them all!

Good point; Let's get rid of that then.

Second, without seeing the final pathfinder fighter, its hard to say exactly what they are giving up.

I think the Beta is pretty indicative of it.

So far as written they are PERFECT 1st level dips for fighters, barbarians, paladins, and anyone else who wants to be a great combatant. At first level, you're getting two better saves, a dozen or so "free" weapon proficiencies, better skills, and a bump to hit/dmg/ac/saves all for the "cost" of a bonus feat. I'd certainly want to play a champion1/fighter19!

That is a problem. The barbarian is a good yardstick and I admit that fast movement and rage are worse. This is a convincing argument to put the BAB and AC bonuses off until 4th. However . . .

This class suffers the same problem ranger and paladin did in 3.0; great abilities to grab at first level, then go onto your "real" class.

. . . I don't personally give a lot of weight to arguments that rely too heavily on build logic alone simply because it's not how 3e games tend to work in practice.

Personally, if the "simple class" is so great; it shouldn't need all sort of incentives to be played. It should be on par with the fighter. Keep the bumped HD, but keep the same skills/skill points, saves, and weapon proficiencies as a fighter. Also, I'd make the bump a flat +1 to AC/Save/Attack/Damage every 5 levels (unless your ruling this doesn't stack with magical items).

my 2 cp

Seems too weak compared to other classes as you level up. The Pathfinder Fighter is getting tons of extra feats, automatic weapon group to hit bonuses, AC bonuses from certain armor types and bravery.

However, looking back at the Pathfinder fighter we have these AC, to hit and damage bonuses limited by weapon, capping at +4. So I can see further merits for your argument of +1/5 starting at 5th.

 

[kitsune9]

I have to admit, one of the things I really miss from older versions of D&D was classes being in a hierarchy of complexity, starting with your basic fighter. In my group there are folks who had problems with 3e just because there wasn't an option like that - a guy who just hits, gets hit and doesn't worry about bonus feats and abilities - and some players want the system to go away more than others. I know I sometimes feel the fighter's slew of abilities sometimes detracts from the feel of "farmboy picks up a rusty sword" because ol' farmboy has enough feats to seem like a real pro, right from the start.

So for a couple of years now I've been wondering how you'd reintroduce the basic, no-special ability fighter to 3e and now Pathfinder. The challenge is how to provide a base boost that compares to the slew of per level abilities and provides a motive to stick with the class.

Plus, for maximum flexibility this guy should not *replace* the fighter, but should stand alongside him.

So I've been thinking of the following for this class . . . what do we call him? How about the Champion:

Proficient in all simple, and martial weapons and all armor and shields
d12 hit dice
+2 to attack rolls whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
+2 to AC whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
An everything-even saving throw scheme, perhaps similar to the old Monk's.

Essentially, I want a guy who is a very "generic hero." Very simple to run, with nothing beyond core feats to track - abilities don't change, aren't conditional if at all possible and can be folded into basic character traits. At high levels I suppose he's a Schwarzenegger type of classic action hero. *However* I don't think the above is perfect. So what would you folks suggest for this kind of "old school new school" fighter?

Well, if you want ye olde skool, why not play the old school stuff or the retro-clones? However, if you want to insist on Pathfinderizing some stuff, I'd just pick abilities for the fighter to make them static progressions of their abilities, remove feats and blammo, ye olde skool fighter in Pathfinder.

 

[eyebeams]

Well, if you want ye olde skool, why not play the old school stuff or the retro-clones? However, if you want to insist on Pathfinderizing some stuff, I'd just pick abilities for the fighter to make them static progressions of their abilities, remove feats and blammo, ye olde skool fighter in Pathfinder.

That's not the point:

1) I want to accommodate players who want their characters to function automatically, without career planning, activated abilities, or refigured subsets of basic modifiers as much as possible who play *beside* players who go for more complexity. I have no interest in moving everybody to an old school game.

2) I want to move career management out of the equation as much as possible for the rules set.

3) While I'm doing it I want to emulate the more intuitive, multi-competent character you see in action-fantasy.

4) Most important of all, this arises from discussions I've had with people I play with about what I want, to the agenda is set - it's not just An Idea for the Internet, but something I will probably apply in-game.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If I understand this correctly, this class is not intended to be used for "dipping", but for someone that wants to have an easy class to play his entire career.

How about just breaking the 3E/Pathfinder core assumptions on multiclassing with this class? Just say you can't. Now you can frontload it as much as you like.

My Take:
Base Attack Bonus: Good
Hit Dice: d12
Saves: All Saves are Good
Skill Points: 4+INT
Class Skills: As Fighter
Weapon Proficiency: All Simple and Martial Weapons
Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Heavy, Light Shield, Heavy Shield, Tower Shield

Special Abilities:

1st Level - Champion of Purity
As long as more than 3/4 of your character levels are in the Champion Class, you are considered a Champion of Purity, and gain access to additional abilities.

Ability Enhancement
At 5th class level, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. This bonus increases by 2 every 5 levels thereafter (10: +4; 15: +6; 20: +8 and so on)

Intensive Weapon Training
If you train 30 minutes with an armor, shield or weapon, you become automatically proficient with. This benefit lasts for 24 hours.

Champions Armor and Weapons
You are treated as having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor Feat and a caster level equal to your class level for purposes of this feat. Your selection of items you can create is more limited.

1st level:
Enhancement Bonus for armor, weapon or shield.

5th level:
If enchanting or creating an item with a +2 bonus or higher:
Armor: Resist 10 to one energy type as +1 equivalent.
Weapon: +1d10 energy damage +1d10 energy damage per critical multiplier as +2 equivalent.
Shield: +3 luck bonus to one save (Reflex, Fortitude or Will) as a +1 enhancement bonus equivalent.

10th level:
If enchanting or creating an item with a +3 bonus or higher:
Armor: If you speak a command word while no one is wearing this armor, you can summon it and wear it as a free action. +1 equivalent.
Melee Weapon: The weapon can be thrown with a range increment of 20 feet and returns at the start of your next turn. +1 equivalent.
Ranged Weapon: The weapons range increment doubles. +1 equivalent
Shield:
+3 resistance bonus to all saving throws as a +2 enhancement bonus equivalent. Once per day, you can reroll a saving throw you just failed and take the better result.

15th level:
if enchanting or creating an item with a +4 enhancement bonus or higher:
Armor: Resist 15 to two energy types as a +2 equivalent.
Weapon: Pick one alignment (chaos, evil, good, law). If you attack an enemy with that alignment component, you deal +2d6 damage. +2 equivalent.
Shield: Once per day, you can command the shield to protect you or one ally within 5 squares of you as a move action. The shield floats on its own (freeing your hand) and grants you or the chosen ally its bonuses for up to 5 minutes. It is considered attended by either you (if protecting you) or your ally. The ally does not have to stay within 5 squares of you after you have activated the ability. +1 equivalent.

Feat Substitution
Every time you are eglible for a feat due to your character level while having the Champion of Purity feature, instead of choosing a feat, you can choose to gain a special ability:

Reliable Attack (Ex) - Twice per Combat or 5 Minutes
For your first and fifth feat and every 4 feats thereafter, you can pick this ability:
Reroll a failed attack roll. Multiple selections of this ability allow you multiple uses per combat. You can use this ability only once per attack.

Second Wind (Ex) - Twice per day
For your second and sixth feat and every 4 feats thereafter, you can pick this ability:
As a standard action, you heal damage equal to half your total. You can use this ability no more than once per combat or per 5 minutes, even if you have multiple uses per day.

Death Stroke (Ex) - Twice per day
For your third, sevenths and every 4 feats thereafter, you can pick this ability:
After you hit you can declare the use of this ability as a free action to turn the hit into a critical hit. You gain this ability multiple times, but you can't use it more than once per combat or 5 minutes.

Prepare for Impact (Ex) - Twice per Combat or 5 Minutes
For your fourth and eights feat and every 4 feats thereafter, you can pick this ability:
You can use this ability as a move action to reroll any saves you make until the end of your next turn, and gain temporary hit points equal to twice your level. Multiple selections of this ability allow you multiple uses per combat.

Notes:
The abilities Reliable Attack, Second Wind, Death Stroke and Prepare for Impact are available both as feat substitution and as class feature at certain levels. The feat substitution variant grants more uses then the regular class feature.

Reminder - at what level do I get feats?
1st feat - 1st level
2nd feat - 3rd level
3rd feat - 6th level
4th feat - 9th level
5th feat - 12th level
6th feat - 15th level
7th feat - 19th level
Note that the human bonus feat and class feats do not count for this ability.

The following abilities are gained independent of the Champion of Purity class feature.
Second Wind
At 1st level, you gain one daily use of the Second Wind Ability. You gain a second use at 11th level and every 10 levels thereafter.
This ability is in addition to any gained by the Champion of Purity feature.

Reliable Attack
At 3rd level, you gain one use of the Masterful Attack Ability per combat or 5 minutes. You gain a second use at 13th level and every 10 levels thereafter.
This ability is in addition to any gained by the Champion of Purity feature.

Prepare for Impact
At 5th level, you gain one use of the Prepare for Impact Ability per combat or 5 minutes. You gain a second use at 15th and every 10 levels thereafter.
This ability is in addition to any gained by the Champion of Purity feature.

Death Stroke
At 7st level, you gain one daily use of the Death Stroke Ability. You gain a second use at 17th level and every 10 levels thereafter.
This ability is in addition to any gained by the Champion of Purity feature.


---
You don't really have to make any career choices with this class - you _can_ make some (by electing to take regular feats or multiclassing), but it is just as easy to pick the default options. All the really powerful abilities are available if you stay true to the class, no "dipping".

The class also makes you worry less about selecting magical items to boost your core abilities. The bonuses don't replace the need for all magical items, but you could basically totally ignore magical items for core aspects of your characters. Of course, this might break the "wealth by level" expectations. The crafting feat allows you to still get decent weapons and armor, but you can pick only from a small selection of abilities.

The individual class abilities still offer some tactical and strategical choices, but not very many - I suppose even someone that wants an easy class to play will eventually want some unique tactical decisions to make or might get a little bored. The abilities are still very simple.

 

[eyebeams]

If I understand this correctly, this class is not intended to be used for "dipping", but for someone that wants to have an easy class to play his entire career.

How about just breaking the 3E/Pathfinder core assumptions on multiclassing with this class? Just say you can't. Now you can frontload it as much as you like.

I would like multiclassing to be an option - I just think that oft-cited "take one level and switch" thing tends to get overstated by some folks. However, there's nothing that says you're not allowed to modify a class ability as a result of multiclassing, and you've done something like this in your build.

My Take:
Base Attack Bonus: Good
Hit Dice: d12
Saves: All Saves are Good
Skill Points: 4+INT
Class Skills: As Fighter
Weapon Proficiency: All Simple and Martial Weapons
Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Heavy, Light Shield, Heavy Shield, Tower Shield

I think this is the consensus.

As for your other abilities, I want to avoid subtype bonuses (energy type, particular weapon, etc.) and item creation doesn't sit right with me. There's nothing wrong with this guy picking up standard magic items. The feat substitution stuff does interest me, but my preference is for it all to focus back on the basic d20/Pathfinder character profile as much as possible.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I picked the magic item creation stuff mostly to remove the need to make character build decisions - you just create a weapon, armor or shield with these predetermined components, and don't have to think about choice. It's largely unneeded if you expect the player just to take the items found by looting and never worry about creating something customized in the first place.

The feat substitution has a similar idea - don't want to think about what feats to take? Just pick this pre-selected ones. An alternative take might be to just create a pre-determined list of suggested feats for the player.