Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: The reason the OGL was a bad idea for WOTC

[Caliber]

They don't want people playing rules systems other than their rule system. Nothing's changed about that philosophy as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree Wulf, 'cause this is exactly what I'm trying to say. Spin off self contained games that use their rules is largely what I see the GSL as trying to prevent. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the impression I get.

I think we're on the same page here.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm not sure that we actually disagree Wulf, 'cause this is exactly what I'm trying to say. Spin off self contained games that use their rules is largely what I see the GSL as trying to prevent. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the impression I get.

I think we're on the same page here.

I guess I misunderstood you when you said that the rationale behind the GSL was likely very different from the rationale of the OGL.

That's why I pointed out that the rationale is likely exactly the same, and that they're changing the GSL to make sure that it supports that original stated purpose better than the OGL did.

And then you said that original intentions didn't matter to this conversation, and my point is, YES, in fact, original intentions have everything to do with this conversation. The OGL apparently did not perform as expected or intended; however, "The OGL creates sales competition," is not the issue. WotC doesn't fear sales per se; they fear sales that are outside their house system and distract from their system's dominance.

I'm glad we're on the same page though.

 

[Caliber]

I guess I misunderstood you when you said that the rationale behind the GSL was likely very different from the rationale of the OGL.

That's why I pointed out that the rationale is likely exactly the same, and that they're changing the GSL to make sure that it supports that original stated purpose better than the OGL did.

I'm glad we're on the same page though.

Agreement for everyone! Wheee!

OT: Old ENWorld used to only show signatures once per page. If the poster replied again, their signature would automatically not show up. Now it does. Is there an option I need to configure to regain this feature?

 

[lmpjr007]

Want to know what Pathfiner is? It's a small company picking up the scraps that WotC is leaving behind. If anything, it's a good thing because it keeps these people in the industry as buying customers.

But think about what a "scrap" from WOTC is like? D20 Modern is a "dead line" for WOT, but if I had those sales, I would have 5 people employed full time and living very well. I think people forget sometimes how BIG WOTC is money-wise and what kind of effect they can have in the market. If WOTC lost 5% of it customer base with the change from 3.5 to 4E, that is not huge, but if you could pick up that 5% for you company it would redefine you as a company. Plus on of the biggest differences about Paizo versus other 3PP, WOTC gave them creditiblity by giving them a license for Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. I think of WOTC / Paizo like DC / Marvel.

 

[Nadaka]

Pathfinder is very much on the radar. I have friends that do not buy D&D books, that have not played D&D in 5 years. And before that, they would only play D&D a couple times a year. One of them recommended that I check out Pathfinder as an alternative to 4e because he knew I was more into gaming. Of course I had already been aware of pathfinder. But buzz about pathfinder is spreading even to those who are casual gamers, even those who are barely in the market for gaming.

 

[Scribble]

Pathfinder is... Interesting.

What I mean is it kind of highlights how the OGL didn't accomplish one of the prime goals it wanted to accomplish. (Sort of.)

The OGL was supposed to allow for the open sourcing of the game; which, like open source software, would allow for the game to be built based on what worked best. This worked, partially for DMs... There were options and variants they could apply to their campaign to model the "perfect" system. But I don't think it worked for the game itself. There were lots of Variant systems, but each one was a company's take, and then the company went on to simply attempt to promote their take as best. There was never a remerging of the concepts into a single "best."

I think Paizo has a real oportunity here to make the idea behind the OGL actually work.

Instead of once again just getting some designers together to create their idea of how to fix it, they should look back at the history of OGL material and try to find the options and ideas that realy DID work the best. The stuff the fans thought was right, and really worked.

Then Paizo can use their creative talent to, instead of reinvent the wheel, figure out how to mold the already existing wheel onto a system that really IS perfect. (At least somewhat.)

 

[freyar]

Pathfinder is... Interesting.

What I mean is it kind of highlights how the OGL didn't accomplish one of the prime goals it wanted to accomplish. (Sort of.)

The OGL was supposed to allow for the open sourcing of the game; which, like open source software, would allow for the game to be built based on what worked best. This worked, partially for DMs... There were options and variants they could apply to their campaign to model the "perfect" system. But I don't think it worked for the game itself. There were lots of Variant systems, but each one was a company's take, and then the company went on to simply attempt to promote their take as best. There was never a remerging of the concepts into a single "best."

I think Paizo has a real oportunity here to make the idea behind the OGL actually work.

Instead of once again just getting some designers together to create their idea of how to fix it, they should look back at the history of OGL material and try to find the options and ideas that realy DID work the best. The stuff the fans thought was right, and really worked.

Then Paizo can use their creative talent to, instead of reinvent the wheel, figure out how to mold the already existing wheel onto a system that really IS perfect. (At least somewhat.)

This is in fact something I've really hoped that Paizo would do with PRPG. Paizo has been very good with using OGC in their Pathfinder AP (at least monsters), which made me think that they "got it." (Incidentally, EN Publishing's WotBS has also been very good in this respect.) But I'm not sure that they've mined OGC enough for the rules revision.

 

[Scribble]

This is in fact something I've really hoped that Paizo would do with PRPG. Paizo has been very good with using OGC in their Pathfinder AP (at least monsters), which made me think that they "got it." (Incidentally, EN Publishing's WotBS has also been very good in this respect.) But I'm not sure that they've mined OGC enough for the rules revision.

Yeah I think, now that they don't have to "compete" with D&D, I think they could use this opportunity to really push the OGL into what it was designed to do. Make Pathfinder the game the gamers built, and go from there.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Yeah I think, now that they don't have to "compete" with D&D, I think they could use this opportunity to really push the OGL into what it was designed to do. Make Pathfinder the game the gamers built, and go from there.

If the OGL "failed" as an Open Source development project, as Mearls claimed, the fault for that lies entirely with WotC. There must be some sort of central authority responsible for incorporating the best ideas into the core and constantly redefining the "official" rules.

That was WotC's responsibility, and they dropped the ball.

It remains to be seen whether Paizo is going to pick up the ball or not, but they certainly have the clout to do it.

 

[freyar]

If the OGL "failed" as an Open Source development project, as Mearls claimed, the fault for that lies entirely with WotC. There must be some sort of central authority responsible for incorporating the best ideas into the core and constantly redefining the "official" rules.

That was WotC's responsibility, and they dropped the ball.

Well, it seemed like WotC never really understood how Open Source was supposed to work in that sense.

It remains to be seen whether Paizo is going to pick up the ball or not, but they certainly have the clout to do it.

One can hope.