Pathfinder vs. 3.5?

Perhaps then you should be checking out 4e? It meets every one of your points.
Hi!

I've checked out 4E, and there's a lot of things I like about it. I intend to house rule healing surges into 3.x, for example.

However, what's wrong with paizo asking themselves, "perhaps we should check out modifications to the 3.x/d20 system, and see which ones work better than stock 3.x for what we're doing"?

For example, the NPC creation rules in spycraft 2.0 or the backgrounds in Green Ronin's black company campaign setting are both things that I think add to the game and/or simplify the DM's load. I don't see them taking away anything.

See, IF pathfinder isn't going to be 99% compatible with current 3.x stuff, then I don't see what's lost by "streamlining" the rules to reduce high level wonkiness, make things faster for the DM, and generally "tweak" the 3.x engine.

I am curious though. In your opinion and your game, which of the items that I listed that I want do you not want for your 3.x/OGL game?

Dnddays, I think what I personally prefer would be something similar to 4E's core rules with 3.x's customization options [for example, multiclassing]. Does that make sense?

He didn't list all the stuff he doesn't want.

Presumably 4e has all that, too.
I try to focus on the positive :lol:. BTW, when is trailblazer being released? Will it be offered in print or POD?
 

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However, what's wrong with paizo asking themselves, "perhaps we should check out modifications to the 3.x/d20 system, and see which ones work better than stock 3.x for what we're doing"?

Part of it is the simple fact that we're busy busy busy, and have been for the entirety of Paizo's existence—producing monthly gaming products, be they magazines or books, is a non-stop series of looming deadlines, and as a result we simply don't have time to be completely familiar with every d20 open content development. We're familiar with a lot of it, but the example you mention about the alternate NPC creation methods are unfamiliar to me.

That said, part of the PF RPG's goal is to remain as close as possible to the baseline of the SRD. In so doing, we more or less build in support and ease of use for other modifications publishers have been doing without forcing those changes on customers and gamers who don't like those changes as much. By remaining close to the SRD's baseline, even if we don't directly build upon those alternate NPC creation rules, we can ensure that those rules work as well with PF RPG as they did with the 3.5 SRD.

There seems to be an erroneous assumption going around in some circles that the PF RPG's goals are to vastly "improve" 3.5, when in fact its goals are more humble—we just want to keep in print and supported by stores the incarnation of the rules we prefer. We ARE making changes, to be sure, but those changes are mostly inspired by both our and 3.5 players' reactions not only to our public playtest, but to reactions to 3rd edition in general over the past several years. In a way, the entire lifecycle of 3.5 was a playtest as well.

But we don't want to drift TOO far from 3.5. Tightening things up here and there, offering more options without taking options away, and rebuilding the ability generation and experience point award sections (both of which were NOT open content) were the main goals of the PF RPG.

After all, I want to be able to continue using all the great open content we've been using from other companies (primarily Green Ronin and Necromancer Games), and if we change the game too much, that makes it difficult for us to do that!

See, IF pathfinder isn't going to be 99% compatible with current 3.x stuff...

It won't be 100% compatible, no. Nor was 3.5 100% compatible with 3.0. But I can absolutely guarantee you this—the final PF RPG game (which is in its final few weeks of editing here at Paizo) will be closer to 3.5 than the beta was. The beta was about testing limits and new ideas. Some of those ideas worked well and were popular; they'll be staying. Some of them were not or didn't work well, and in those cases, we've learned that the rules in 3.5 were better and will be staying the same or very similar.
 

I don't see it as a contest of systems. they are compatible. That's the great advantage.

I would go with PF as a base just because it is currently being supported by a company. but I wouldn't hesitate to sprinkle it generously with elements of 3.X

I think in the final version we will see 3E generously sprinkled with Pathfinder.
 



Yeah, it has all that character balance, solid gameplay and fun. Who wants all that!?:rant:

This line of commentary ends here. This is a months-old thread, and will not be derailed by snark. There are many other threads to discuss 4E; this is 3.5 versus Pathfinder thread.
 

It will be released before GenCon and be available in PDF and POD.
Sweet, dude :). Looking forward to a print version.





Hey James!
Part of it is the simple fact that we're busy ...and as a result we simply don't have time to be completely familiar with every d20 open content development...the example you mention about the alternate NPC creation methods are unfamiliar to me.
Completely understandable. In short, they use a real big chart to select things quickly.

There seems to be an erroneous assumption going around in some circles that the PF RPG's goals are to vastly "improve" 3.5, when in fact its goals are more humble—we just want to keep in print and supported by stores the incarnation of the rules we prefer. We ARE making changes, to be sure, but those changes are mostly inspired by both our and 3.5 players' reactions not only to our public playtest, but to reactions to 3rd edition in general over the past several years. In a way, the entire lifecycle of 3.5 was a playtest as well.
My bad. I was one of those people under the assumption that pathfinder was going to be more different than what you're saying. I'm glad I was mistaken.

But we don't want to drift TOO far from 3.5. Tightening things up here and there, offering more options without taking options away, and rebuilding the ability generation and experience point award sections (both of which were NOT open content) were the main goals of the PF RPG.
Some people note that 3.x plays very different at high level. Also, some people note that the CR system isn't always accurate [cakewalk or TPK]. Can you discuss at this time how pathfinder addresses either of these issues?

It won't be 100% compatible, no. Nor was 3.5 100% compatible with 3.0. But I can absolutely guarantee you this—the final PF RPG game (which is in its final few weeks of editing here at Paizo) will be closer to 3.5 than the beta was. The beta was about testing limits and new ideas. Some of those ideas worked well and were popular; they'll be staying. Some of them were not or didn't work well, and in those cases, we've learned that the rules in 3.5 were better and will be staying the same or very similar.
I'm okay if it's not 100% compatible. In fact, the more improved the game is in my very subjective opinion, the more forgiving I will be concerning compatibility. Thanks for answering my questions, James. You've gone a long way on making me want PF:RPG.
 

Hey James!Completely understandable. In short, they use a real big chart to select things quickly.
We do have a revised and streamlined method for generating NPCs in the book, in any event, including a lot of advice on what feats and skills to give them. The fact that skills themselves work a bit more simply (max rank = HD, not max rank = HD +3, and so on) goes a long way toward making NPCs easier to build; that's for sure!

Some people note that 3.x plays very different at high level. Also, some people note that the CR system isn't always accurate [cakewalk or TPK]. Can you discuss at this time how pathfinder addresses either of these issues?
We've done a lot of little things to address making high level play easier, but we haven't made it simple. While a lot of folks cite high-level play as "too complex," there's a fair amount who enjoy that complexity, and stripping the complexity out needlessly is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, to use a cliche. Nevertheless, we have made a lot of changes to needlessly complex rules. Many of those are changes to how spells work; dispel magic, in particular, was good at single-handedly disrupting high level play because it got used ALL the time and it took forever to sift through its results, especially when there's a lot of spell effects to go through.

The CR system is a bit more complex. It's value, in my opinion, is more of a way to measure monsters against each other, really, than against the PCs, especially since the power level of a PC depends on house rules, the skill of the player, the skill of the GM at running monsters, the choices made at character creation, and how many beyond-core rules are allowed in the character's creation. That's a lot of impossible-to-quantify variables. As a result, CR can only REALLY be a measure of how a monster balances out against other monsters, or against cookie-cutter strictly-by-the-book PCs. We've done a lot of research and investigation into determining what a specific CR can do, say, in terms of average damage per round, what its average hp and AC should be, what its saves and save DCs should be, and so on, all associated against the standard PC. The Pathfinder Bestiary will have the results of this rebalancing and rebuilding, and the RPG will have a new XP table and method of awarding XP that's a LOT simpler and more straightforward than 3.5's version, I think.

Anyway, I can't go into exact details about how high level play, CR, and other things work in Pathfinder RPG yet... although I believe we'll start doing preview stuff in May over at paizo.com...

I'm okay if it's not 100% compatible. In fact, the more improved the game is in my very subjective opinion, the more forgiving I will be concerning compatibility.
The game is different, but from what I've seen personally as a GM and a player, the ease of using 3.5 (or even 3.0) mechanics in a Pathfinder game (or vice versa) is something that a GM can handle at the table. My current Pathfinder GM is running a 3.5 Necromancer Games module in a Pathfinder game, and with the exception of periodically having to calculate a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus and Defense in game when we tackle a creature that he wasn't prepared for us to fight, it's going pretty seamlessly. (And calculating those values only takes like 10 or 15 seconds anyway... less time than it took to look up the different rules for the various combat moves like grapple and trip and disarm did!).
 


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