Payment of Writers

[2WS-Steve]

As a follow up to Steve Trustrum's comment. I think monster books in general need to have a higher page count to price ratio to succeed. They're "blue" books so that means you're already cutting out half or more of the market and purchasers buy these books expecting to only use a small selection of the monsters included.

Just a FREX here, class and race books have and continue to sell quite well in the $20 for 96-128 page range whereas you really need a monster book to top 178 pages to have a decent chance. Even $10 32-48 pg class books can do extremely well but I'm sure you'd get miserable sales on such a format if it were a monster collection.

 

[JoeCrow]

Here's a question for you and I guess for everyone here.

Would enough people who would pay $30 for a 400-page monster book featuring official D&D monsters from previous editions balk at paying $35 or even $40 for the same book that you would make less money overall by raising the retail price?

In a heartbeat.

Some points of comparison: MM2 retails for 29.95 at 224 pages. Yeah, it's in color. Usual pretty WotC cover, nice paper. Mix of old critters and new ones, slightly tilted toward higher CRs.

ToH retails for 29.95 at 400 pages. Black and white (I believe), pretty S&S cover, nice paper. All classic critters, all the time.

What part of "steal" did you fail to understand?

I'd drop $40 easy. I think most of the rest of the gaming public would, too.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

ToH retails for 29.95 at 400 pages. Black and white (I believe), pretty S&S cover, nice paper. All classic critters, all the time.

My one hope for ToH? That it doesn't have that awful smell that all S&S hardcovers seem to have

 

[Khan the Warlord]

My one hope for ToH? That it doesn't have that awful smell that all S&S hardcovers seem to have

I've noticed that as well. My S&SS hardbacks smell like sweaty BO.

But speaking of print types and paper and such... is there *any* way we could convince the majority of publishers that just *have* to be B&W only to change their paper to something more like what Bastion Press has and the first couple of issues of Gaming Frontiers?

I realize that this superior paper costs more, but is it *so* much more to not be used over the regular paper?

Personally, I wouldn't care about having to settle with only B&W illustrations if the paper was better.

 

[jester47]

Re: Re: Re: 12,000 words

Well, I usually work at a pace of 800-1000k words/hour and so far haven't had _too_ many complaints. I'd say a read through and revision is at about 3k words/hour.

You could always check comments on RPGNow of some of the things I've done or look for reviews of other products I've worked on in the past. There's a decent listing on my website (address below).

A lot of it depends on exactly what is being written. Scenarios for miniatures games (once I know the rules) can go very quickly while reviews are sometimes long and painful affairs as I go back and recheck to make sure I understood what I read or played.

Ahh, yes, I cruise about 900 words an hour. For every hour I write I revise and polish for an hour. I will not let myself work more than 6 hours in a day (a 40 hour work week is for the rats!) and have a bad habit of going outside a lot. So that means with my current habits, I get about 2700 words a day.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

I've noticed that as well. My S&SS hardbacks smell like sweaty BO.

Yeah, S&SS books have some strange oder about them. I have not been able to read R&R2 because of it, and it is why I sold R&R1.

Its a strange habit I have. I actually do smell the book before I buy it. I should write reviews...

"yes R&R2 is one of the best suplements released in a long time, however the books physically stink..."

Its a sweet inky perfumy smell. But not good. Makes me nauseuous. Like that bad strawberry scent that you might find sold at spencer gifts of hot topic...

Bastion really needs help in the art dept. Yeah, I know they are your friends Jim, but man, those colors need work.

Aaron.

 

[AaronLoeb]

Price: Identical
Length: Oathbound
Color: Oathbound
Paper stock: Oathbound
Text Density: Oathbound

--Erik Mona

Not that it matters terribly, because I agree with your point in general, Erik, but I must take issue with the text density part of your argument. If you open the two books again and lay them side-to-side, you'll notice that BotR has no margin art and is in a smaller font. It's actually got higher text density. I could do a full cast-off (the old-school print publishing method for determining text density) breakdown if you like, but I only bring it up because text density is one of the things we're all fiercely proud about with BotR.

In other news, I bought Oathbound last week. Outhbound rocks.

Aaron

 

[JohnNephew]

But speaking of print types and paper and such... is there *any* way we could convince the majority of publishers that just *have* to be B&W only to change their paper to something more like what Bastion Press has and the first couple of issues of Gaming Frontiers?

I realize that this superior paper costs more, but is it *so* much more to not be used over the regular paper?

I've looked into it. For example, I've gotten quotes for using the 70# matte coated stock that we use in the color section of Nyambe in an entire book. It does add substantially to the production cost. (I think it would add 20%-25% to the total printing cost of the Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary, for example.) Though, I suppose if we cut the writers' pay from 4 cents to the 3 cents some other companies are paying, that would make up the difference. (Though with the declining d20 sales volumes on most products, we're getting less room to maneuver, budget-wise...) Not sure I like handing more money to printers than creatives, though -- I think the printers are already paying themselves decently, and I'll bet that the average freelancer is making a lot less than the average printer employee.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

I've looked into it. For example, I've gotten quotes for using the 70# matte coated stock that we use in the color section of Nyambe in an entire book. It does add substantially to the production cost. (I think it would add 20%-25% to the total printing cost of the Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary, for example.) Though, I suppose if we cut the writers' pay from 4 cents to the 3 cents some other companies are paying, that would make up the difference. (Though with the declining d20 sales volumes on most products, we're getting less room to maneuver, budget-wise...) Not sure I like handing more money to printers than creatives, though -- I think the printers are already paying themselves decently, and I'll bet that the average freelancer is making a lot less than the average printer employee.

Wow.

Well, if the increase in paper quality would equal a decrease in the pay of your freelancers, then I would have to say forget the paper. Of course, if a slight increase to the MSRP (say $5) would balance this out, then I as a customer would be more than willing to pay the extra for the better paper.

Well, I was mainly just trying to figure out some way to augment (in a good way) those publishers' products that are B&W only -- any other suggestions to do this?

 

[2WS-Steve]

I actually prefer standard paper; I like to be able to write and erase in the book and the slick paper doesn't allow that.