Payment of Writers
- Thread starter SemperRomanus
- Start date
der_kluge
Adventurer
As a general rule, I think the cost of a book should have a direct correlation to the amount of use that book is going to get. That's a factor I use when purchasing a product. I'm very picky as it is, and a book like Oathbound, while gorgeous and interesting, just isn't going to get any use. For starters, I'm not currently DM'ing, and when I do DM, it will be set somewhere other than Oathbound, so I'd only be buying it just to read it, and that's not worth it to me.
On the other hand, a 400 page mega module like Tome of Horrors, should demand a high price because it's liable to give a DM a TON of use and enjoyment. A 400 page book of plants and herbs, while neat, would get FAR LESS use than a module might, and I would expect should cost less. That's just an example.
I used to play Everquest. And people would ask "How much does that cost?" And I'd say, "well, depending on the plan, somewhere around $9-$10 per month", and they'd look at me like I was crazy. "That seems awful expensive especially since you've already paid for the software, too." And then I'd say, "Well, not really, when you consider I'm probably playing it easily 40 hours per month. Can you see 20 movies in a month for $10?" And then they'd understand. Everquest, while costly, is a good value, and I think a good example of how books should be priced.
If I'm going to get a lot of use out if it, I'll buy it, and I'll pay an amount for it equivalent to the amount of value that I think I'm going to get out of it.
On the other hand, a 400 page mega module like Tome of Horrors, should demand a high price because it's liable to give a DM a TON of use and enjoyment. A 400 page book of plants and herbs, while neat, would get FAR LESS use than a module might, and I would expect should cost less. That's just an example.
I used to play Everquest. And people would ask "How much does that cost?" And I'd say, "well, depending on the plan, somewhere around $9-$10 per month", and they'd look at me like I was crazy. "That seems awful expensive especially since you've already paid for the software, too." And then I'd say, "Well, not really, when you consider I'm probably playing it easily 40 hours per month. Can you see 20 movies in a month for $10?" And then they'd understand. Everquest, while costly, is a good value, and I think a good example of how books should be priced.
If I'm going to get a lot of use out if it, I'll buy it, and I'll pay an amount for it equivalent to the amount of value that I think I'm going to get out of it.
The Grey Elf
Explorer
Higher prices?
I'm new to these forums, but I see some familiar faces here, who should recognize me from a few other rpg-related forums around. I'm also a (relatively new) freelancer, and I wanted to throw my two cents' worth in.
Higher prices on rpg materials isn't the answer. That's like cutting off your left hand to feed the right. I already personally know too many people who boycott (or worse, pirate) rpg books because of the high prices in the industry right now. I know we're all aware of how inflation works, but something's got to be done at the highest levels of the industry to lower production costs, pay writers more, and stabilize or even lower the prices of books. I'm not a CEO or business whiz, so I have no idea how or if this might be done, but I can tell you one thing. Higher prices will inevitably translate to sagging sales figures, which means cutbacks, which means less work for freelancers.
Stuff rolls downhill. I'm not saying you should accept low rates (though I recently did a "flat fee" project that I just discovered is paying less than 2 cents a word, all told. Next time I'll do my math first). I am, however, saying that unless something changes at the high-level business end of the industry, we're not going to see higher rates. Not, that is, unless publishers begin to take less profit from sales, and small press companies don't often make that much profit to begin with.
I'm new to these forums, but I see some familiar faces here, who should recognize me from a few other rpg-related forums around. I'm also a (relatively new) freelancer, and I wanted to throw my two cents' worth in.
Higher prices on rpg materials isn't the answer. That's like cutting off your left hand to feed the right. I already personally know too many people who boycott (or worse, pirate) rpg books because of the high prices in the industry right now. I know we're all aware of how inflation works, but something's got to be done at the highest levels of the industry to lower production costs, pay writers more, and stabilize or even lower the prices of books. I'm not a CEO or business whiz, so I have no idea how or if this might be done, but I can tell you one thing. Higher prices will inevitably translate to sagging sales figures, which means cutbacks, which means less work for freelancers.
Stuff rolls downhill. I'm not saying you should accept low rates (though I recently did a "flat fee" project that I just discovered is paying less than 2 cents a word, all told. Next time I'll do my math first). I am, however, saying that unless something changes at the high-level business end of the industry, we're not going to see higher rates. Not, that is, unless publishers begin to take less profit from sales, and small press companies don't often make that much profit to begin with.
Abulia
First Post
Grey Elf (and others) makes some good points. I've supported for some time publishers raising prices as I, personally, feel that prices have been fairly static for a number of years. Of course, I have a) a lot of disposable income and b) am a freelancer so obviously I probably carry a fair amount of bias. 
Consumers never like having prices raised. Why pay more if they (the publishers) aren't going to make you? What a few companies are finding out I believe is that while some people may take the stance of "I'm not going to buy" enough, in fact, still do. Ultimately prices will raise to whatever the market as a whole, not the minority vocal consumer with an Internet account, will bear.
Prices are simply one factor of the equation, as many will tell you. Increasing your revenue stream alone won't help you if you're bleeding expenses due to excessive print runs or poor management decisions. (Ask any of the d20 publishers sitting on product that they're either giving away or pulping.) The tension between profitability and creativity is a fine line to walk.
Regards,
Don Mappin
Freelancer for Hire
Consumers never like having prices raised. Why pay more if they (the publishers) aren't going to make you? What a few companies are finding out I believe is that while some people may take the stance of "I'm not going to buy" enough, in fact, still do. Ultimately prices will raise to whatever the market as a whole, not the minority vocal consumer with an Internet account, will bear.
Prices are simply one factor of the equation, as many will tell you. Increasing your revenue stream alone won't help you if you're bleeding expenses due to excessive print runs or poor management decisions. (Ask any of the d20 publishers sitting on product that they're either giving away or pulping.) The tension between profitability and creativity is a fine line to walk.
Regards,
Don Mappin
Freelancer for Hire
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
2WS-Steve said:
Steve, I don't know if you have had a chance to see both Bad Axe books-- DWARVES and HALF ORCS-- but the difference there is night and day.
Dwarves is 50# stock. Half-Orcs is 60# stock. Half Orcs has better heft, a better spine width, and although I didn't have terrible "bleed" with Dwarves at 50#, there was enough bleed through that the pages all ended up looking grey. Half Orcs is much better.
I am eager to tackle a hardback soon and see the reality of those printing and shipping costs.
I tend to think like Clark where this business is concerned. I'm in it for the love. So, my costs went up switching from 50# to 60#, both in terms of per-unit and freight, but I kept the retail price the same. I am just too happy delivering what I am at that 9.95 price point.
On the other hand, like Pramas and especially Dancey, I would love to see this as an industry folks can really make a living at, most especially ME. I am fortunate to have extremely low overhead costs, and as I never intended to make a living as "the publisher," I can pay artists and writers a little more.
I would hate to think that those of us with "day jobs" are making things worse for the full-timers.
Wulf
Orcus
First Post
Nikchick-
You are right. It is hard to compare Crucible--which made a big name for iteself with distributors and retailers prior to the glut, much like your Freeport--with later products.
The problem is, that continues to be true. The market keeps changing and it hasnt been in existence that long so I just dont feel I have any stable, reliable market data available to help me price products.
I did recently up prices about a dollar to get them in line with other SSS products, but I still think our stuff is reasonably priced. Numbers are a bit lower. Is that because of the higher price or because of a dip in d20 overall? If I had charged $1 less would I have sold more? Its hard to say right now.
Plus, then there is the whole issue of returns. You sales to distributors might be great, but 6 months from now you see big returns of unsold product. It is really hard to peg the market right now. And I even have a bit of an advantage since I can compare my stuff to other SSS stuff, so I dont have to just rely on sales data for my own products. And I still have a hard time predicting this stuff.
I would really appreciate comments from Nik and John and others who have been running their companies for some time on rules of thumb you guys use to set prices.
Clark
You are right. It is hard to compare Crucible--which made a big name for iteself with distributors and retailers prior to the glut, much like your Freeport--with later products.
The problem is, that continues to be true. The market keeps changing and it hasnt been in existence that long so I just dont feel I have any stable, reliable market data available to help me price products.
I did recently up prices about a dollar to get them in line with other SSS products, but I still think our stuff is reasonably priced. Numbers are a bit lower. Is that because of the higher price or because of a dip in d20 overall? If I had charged $1 less would I have sold more? Its hard to say right now.
Plus, then there is the whole issue of returns. You sales to distributors might be great, but 6 months from now you see big returns of unsold product. It is really hard to peg the market right now. And I even have a bit of an advantage since I can compare my stuff to other SSS stuff, so I dont have to just rely on sales data for my own products. And I still have a hard time predicting this stuff.
I would really appreciate comments from Nik and John and others who have been running their companies for some time on rules of thumb you guys use to set prices.
Clark
Last edited:
Greg at FFG
First Post
Erik Mona said:
EN World ate my rant! I posted a long response to this, but I think I previewed and then didn't submit it. I'll try to keep it shorter this time just in case the original reappears from the ether.
All due respect Erik, but markets don't work like this. The consumer generally doesn't care or even know what a product cost the manufacturer. He just cares whether or not it's a good value for him, all things considered (how much he needs or wants it, cost and availability of substitute products, etc.). A gamer who decides Oathbound isn't worth $40 to him isn't irrational, he's just making an everyday, ordinary purchasing decision.
I find it interesting that we, as publishers, are claiming that our customers are willing to pay more for our products and complaining that our sales are slipping at the same time. This, I would suggest, does not compute.
Are prices too low to make good money in the RPG industry? You bet. Sadly, unless you have a really hot, high-demand product, you'll most likely just sell less books if you raise prices significantly. Our customers have shelves full of d20 books, and shelves more to choose from every month. They *will* get pickier about what they buy. If you want to keep your sales up, you better make damn sure it's a good product that your customers actually want *and* that it's available at a competitive price.
You won't likely make good money in the RPG industry because it's a weak market based on a tiny customer base that doesn't really need your products to participate in their hobby. From a business perspective, you're not making enough money because *you don't sell enough product* -- not because your prices are "too low." Small market, low demand, real hard to make money. Bummer.
Build a solid business within the constraints of the market you've chosen, publish a breakout hit, do it for love rather than money, or do something else. Publishers, editors, writers, artists -- everyone involved in this "industry" is likely to remain underpaid with a very few and notable exceptions.
All of this, of course, is just my opinion. Very interesting discussion.
Greg
FFG
Did Necromancer Games ever make a profit on "The Crucible of Freya"? I didn't think the $7.99 price tag would for the first run, but how about now? I have to admit I bought it partly because of the price, but mostly because I liked the free download "The Wizard's Amulet".
When you do print runs, how many copies do you usually order? What is a highly successful print run, like 10,000? I would imagine Necromancer Games is turning a good profit by now, but if you're still keeping your day job then maybe not. Do you ever expect to quit your day job? Also, do you decide how many copies you want to print or work with the distributor?
As for the Tome of Horrors, I will definitely be buying a copy. But I have to admit that I would have been a bit more hesitant if the price was $34.95 or $39.95 partly because I expect the quality of the paper and binding to not be as good compared to WOTC. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but that's my observation with most of the d20 stuff. Anyhow, I don't really need the Tome of Horrors, I just want it. I'm willing to pay $34.95 or more for a book if the paper and binding is good and I really like the material. If not, I won't pay more than $29.95 and sometimes I just won't buy it.
By the way, I wonder why distributors don't like it when companies give a discount during GenCon but turn a blind eye to "deals" on the last day of the convention. They should really allow a 10% discount to encourage promotion. I know I'd buy more stuff at GenCon with a small motivation like that. That's because I don't really have any other major reason to buy something at the convention when I can just wait until I get home to do so. I guess you save the sales tax and can contribute to a company's direct sales, but that just doesn't justify more weight for me to carry back home on top of all the stuff I buy at the auction.
When you do print runs, how many copies do you usually order? What is a highly successful print run, like 10,000? I would imagine Necromancer Games is turning a good profit by now, but if you're still keeping your day job then maybe not. Do you ever expect to quit your day job? Also, do you decide how many copies you want to print or work with the distributor?
As for the Tome of Horrors, I will definitely be buying a copy. But I have to admit that I would have been a bit more hesitant if the price was $34.95 or $39.95 partly because I expect the quality of the paper and binding to not be as good compared to WOTC. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but that's my observation with most of the d20 stuff. Anyhow, I don't really need the Tome of Horrors, I just want it. I'm willing to pay $34.95 or more for a book if the paper and binding is good and I really like the material. If not, I won't pay more than $29.95 and sometimes I just won't buy it.
By the way, I wonder why distributors don't like it when companies give a discount during GenCon but turn a blind eye to "deals" on the last day of the convention. They should really allow a 10% discount to encourage promotion. I know I'd buy more stuff at GenCon with a small motivation like that. That's because I don't really have any other major reason to buy something at the convention when I can just wait until I get home to do so. I guess you save the sales tax and can contribute to a company's direct sales, but that just doesn't justify more weight for me to carry back home on top of all the stuff I buy at the auction.
garyh
First Post
I've got a question: What about the effects of discounts? Most stuff under $20 I just buy at my FLGS, but I don't remember the last time I bought a hardcover $30-$40 book at the local store. If a product costs that much, I put in an order at Amazon, where the hardcover stuff is almost always 30% off and I don't have to pay sales tax. This is how I end up buying some things I don't need (like the FRCS - heard great things about the value and how it set the bar for campaign settings, but I'd never so much as looked at FR stuff before then) along with things I "can't live without" (like the WoT RPG, having read the whole series).
So, do you as a publisher think perhaps you can price things at $40 to pick up that revenue at FLGS's, and depend on Amazon or the like for people who might buy it but only at a lower price?
In economics, we call this "perfect price discrimination." Same reason booking a flight for a vacation three months ahead is a lot cheaper than next day business flying.
So, do you as a publisher think perhaps you can price things at $40 to pick up that revenue at FLGS's, and depend on Amazon or the like for people who might buy it but only at a lower price?
In economics, we call this "perfect price discrimination." Same reason booking a flight for a vacation three months ahead is a lot cheaper than next day business flying.
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