Payment of Writers

Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

JohnNephew said:
In the end, I think we agree, to wit: We can't take the behavior of pirates much into account. They'll do it whether a book is $5 or $50, and (IMHO) make up excuses to make themselves feel justified in doing it either way. When it comes to figuring out what you need to charge as a publisher, forget them.
Well said, John.

Out of curiosity, how many publishers sit down and do a hard ROI model on their products or is pricing determined by looking at the market at large? "xx is a similar product and is priced $xx, so we'll do the same." Some combination of the two? I suspect it's more the latter than the former, with experience (time in the industry) being a large factor as time goes on.

I don't subscribe to the notion of an earlier poster that pay by word count somehow encourages "wordier" text. The developer/editor defines what topics need to be covered and what space can be set aside. I've turned in chapters under word count because I covered the topic at hand satisfactorily. (By the same token, I've also gone over.)

Besides, any writer that just tosses in fluff prose might find their contract terminated and all their work tossed aside in favor of a minimal kill fee. Plus, as developers and publishers network within a close circle your next assignment will be that much harder to land. :)

Regards,
Don Mappin
Freelancer for Hire
 
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garyh said:
So, do you as a publisher think perhaps you can price things at $40 to pick up that revenue at FLGS's, and depend on Amazon or the like for people who might buy it but only at a lower price?
The problem is, it doesn't matter that Amazon.com prices it at 30% off cover, and your FLGS prices it at cover. The publisher still gets paid the same price. In other words, it doesn't matter where you buy it. The publisher gets the same deal. The only case where the publisher gets a better deal is if he/she sells direct from his/her web-site, in which case they get a much better deal, since they capture the distributor's fee. Usually, they won't price under retailers for fear of a retailer backlash.

I definitely think that paying full cover price is a bad idea. That's why I haven't gone to a FLGS since I re-entered the hobby a year ago. They don't add any value to my hobby. If I really wanted to support a publisher, buying 2 books from Amazon.com for the price of one book from your FLGS would allow a publisher to see more money from me.

And Clark --- I'll definitely pick up the Tome of Horrors (and I didn't buy the Monster Manual II!). It's a great deal for a great price.
 

Greg Benage wrote:
>>>
All due respect Erik, but markets don't work like this. The consumer generally doesn't care or even know what a product cost the manufacturer. He just cares whether or not it's a good value for him, all things considered (how much he needs or wants it, cost and availability of substitute products, etc.). A gamer who decides Oathbound isn't worth $40 to him isn't irrational, he's just making an everyday, ordinary purchasing decision.
>>>

Clearly.

The most important factor in whether or not a book will sell is whether or not a whole bunch of people are interested enough to buy it. I specifically used Oathbound and BotR as examples because of their nearly universal approval rating (albeit anecdotal) posted to this web site. If someone isn't interested in a new setting or a book featuring a complete pantheon, the books could cost a dollar and it wouldn't matter.

I'm already assuming, in my argument on the last page, that the purchaser is interested in the concept of the material in question. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

>>>
I find it interesting that we, as publishers, are claiming that our customers are willing to pay more for our products and complaining that our sales are slipping at the same time. This, I would suggest, does not compute.
>>>

I agree, it doesn't compute.

I don't think the two have anything to do with each other, frankly. Put out a book that fills a niche no one has touched and that people are genuinely interested in (a book on traps, for instance), and you're likely to sell quite a lot of copies, even in this market. I think the sales slowdown has a LOT more to do with a glut of product and multiple books on the same subject from a variety of publishers than on the fact that consumers in general think their products are "too expensive." If you already own three books about naval battles and don't have any interest in a fourth, again, it's not going to matter if that fourth book is a really good value.

>>>
Are prices too low to make good money in the RPG industry? You bet. Sadly, unless you have a really hot, high-demand product, you'll most likely just sell less books if you raise prices significantly.
>>>

I'm not even advocating a "significant" increase in price. I hate to keep harping on Necromancer, but Clark's a good sport. Does anyone honestly believe that a book like that would suffer a siginicant, profit-affecting sales drop if priced at $32.95 rather than $30? Yet such a seemingly insigificant change to the price on the consumer's end might result in thousands of extra dollars in revenue for Clark. Even if he sells fewer copies, it's possible that he still makes more money. I'm not advocating charging $40 for the Tome of Horrors (though I suspect he could and make a tidy profit), but I am suggesting that a $30 price point is simply lower than it needs to be.

Remember, this conversation began as a discussion of how much various publishers pay their writers. Clark lamented that he had to pay less than the industry standard because he wasn't making enough money to pay more. I suggest that he could make more money, which, among other things would allow him to pay his writers better, by charging more for his products.

>>>
Our customers have shelves full of d20 books, and shelves more to choose from every month. They *will* get pickier about what they buy. If you want to keep your sales up, you better make damn sure it's a good product that your customers actually want *and* that it's available at a competitive price.
>>>

And, unless you're doing this as a pure hobby, you probably want to make sure that your price is fair to YOU and your employees, too. I completely agree with you that consumers are becoming more and more picky, especially as the same types of books have proliferated the store shelves over the last year or so. The age of getting rich off a crappy product is behind us.

So many publishers are turning to snazzy graphic design, better paper, better illustrations, and color to catch the attention of their would-be fans. My hope is that they price their products sensibly so as to keep themselves in business and can pay their freelance writers more than what was a common rate for cheap pulp fiction magazines in the 1920s.

>>>
You won't likely make good money in the RPG industry because it's a weak market based on a tiny customer base that doesn't really need your products to participate in their hobby. From a business perspective, you're not making enough money because *you don't sell enough product* -- not because your prices are "too low." Small market, low demand, real hard to make money. Bummer.
>>>

I don't think anyone writing in the industry expects to be buying a Lexus any time soon, but nor do I think it unreasonable that full-time employees at game companies should expect benefits and 401(k) programs. I don't think it's unreasonable that a hard-working freelancer ought to be able to pay a modest rent and car payment. Most publishers don't have to struggle so hard. Most artists don't, either. I _know_ most printers don't. It's scapegoating and unfair to pay the writer so poorly.

Crap rates have chased off dozens of talented designers from this business, which I think is a shame. There are plenty of good ones waiting in the wings, but there are plenty of over-enthusiastic fans who continue the cycle of crap products waiting there, too.

Mor ecrap products mean more glutted shelves and less happy retailers, which means less innovation and less money for everyone.

>>>
Build a solid business within the constraints of the market you've chosen, publish a breakout hit, do it for love rather than money, or do something else. Publishers, editors, writers, artists -- everyone involved in this "industry" is likely to
remain underpaid with a very few and notable exceptions.
>>>

If you and several people at your company (FFG) make a wage doing this, and if you sell thousands of copies of books that bring profit to that company, and if there are several other companies out there doing the same thing, why the cutesy quotation marks around the word industry?

I'm convinced that one of the reasons so many people are broke in this industry is that so many participants in this industry aren't actually interested in making any money.

In short, we often don't take ourselves seriously. If we don't present our products as worthwhile of the kind of investment our customers routinely dish out for other forms of entertainment, why should our customers take us seriously, either?

--Erik
 

Thorin Stoutfoot said:

The problem is, it doesn't matter that Amazon.com prices it at 30% off cover, and your FLGS prices it at cover. The publisher still gets paid the same price. In other words, it doesn't matter where you buy it. The publisher gets the same deal. The only case where the publisher gets a better deal is if he/she sells direct from his/her web-site, in which case they get a much better deal, since they capture the distributor's fee. Usually, they won't price under retailers for fear of a retailer backlash.

Thanks for addressing my question, Thorin. How about a follow-up, then: Does it REALLY cost 30% of MSRP to get it to the FLGS? Good god, does it get there by mule? Pardon my ignorance... I don't know a thing about distribution. If this is the case, I need to open up an RPG shipping company. ;)

Thanks!
 

Erik Mona said:
Greg Benage wrote:
I don't think anyone writing in the industry expects to be buying a Lexus any time soon, but nor do I think it unreasonable that full-time employees at game companies should expect benefits and 401(k) programs. I don't think it's unreasonable that a hard-working freelancer ought to be able to pay a modest rent and car payment. Most publishers don't have to struggle so hard. Most artists don't, either. I _know_ most printers don't. It's scapegoating and unfair to pay the writer so poorly.

Crap rates have chased off dozens of talented designers from this business, which I think is a shame. There are plenty of good ones waiting in the wings, but there are plenty of over-enthusiastic fans who continue the cycle of crap products waiting there, too.
...
In short, we often don't take ourselves seriously. If we don't present our products as worthwhile of the kind of investment our customers routinely dish out for other forms of entertainment, why should our customers take us seriously, either?
Eric, I'm not convinced that the creatives won't continue to be paid poorly even if industry started making a profit. Take the computer game industry, for instance. They make billions of dollars a year, even more than movies, as an industry. But the creatives (programmers, game designers, and art people) in the game industry generally don't get paid what regular people doing the same job in other industries get paid, for instance.

For instance, programmers at game companies accept wages at about $20-25,000 a year, while programmers at other jobs have a median of around $40,000 a year. I wouldn't consider a job in the game industry for that reason, but many folks do, get burned out after 5 years, and get replaced by a bunch of new faces. It's not ideal, but that's how it works.

Now computer games get $40 a unit, but the alternative to not having a computer game is to program it yourself, and most consumers do not have the where-withal to do it themselves at the same quality as commercial work. But RPGs are such that a decent DM can do a better job than commercial work.
 

I assume writers will make more because many of the publishers who have posted to this thread have as much as said that they'd pay better if they could. Many publishers, like John Nephew or Chris Pramas, were actually freelancers in the industry before they became publishers, so they know how tough it can be.

Interestingly, both Chris and John pay near the top of the range we've seen discussed here, and both routinely attract top-name talent to write their products. Both Atlas and Green Ronin have extremely good reputations for reliablity and high-quality products that provide good value for their associated costs.

>>>
But RPGs are such that a decent DM can do a better job than commercial work.
>>>

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with this statement. Can a "decent" DM design an adventure that works for her party better than a randomly selected d20 adventure? Sure.

Can the same DM design a set of superhero rules as solidly as Steve Kenson? I suspect not. Can she draw maps as well as Todd Gamble, Chris West, or Rob Lee? I shouldn't think so. Can she whip up a sketch as evocative as a painting by Todd Lockwood? Of course not.

DMs are, of course, free to design their own material, but that doesn't mean that they have the free time to do it or that the final product will be as thoughtful, interesting, or balanced as the professional output of the RPG gaming industry.

God knows, I've sat through enough RPGA adventures written by "decent" DMs to know that there's often a wide gulf between what an average DM thinks is a good adventure and what gets published with color art and a nice binding.

--Erik
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

Thorin Stoutfoot said:

I have to say, the industry distributor chain must be incredibly inefficient for this to happen. I usually see books sold at 30% off on Amazon.com (and I typically manage to an additional 5% by using the special credit card), plus free shipping. That means that on average, at least 35% of the cover price goes into the wholesale/retail distribution chain!

Doesn't that mean that if publishers somehow managed to capture that extra 35%, you could pay writers more AND have better profits?

Here's how it works. The traditional breakdown is 40% of cover price for the publisher, 10%-15% for the distributor, and 45%-50% for the retailer. Remember, the retailer is taking risk on those books -- if he buys two copies of our latest release, "Lean and Hungry," and only sells one, he's not making any money. In fact, he's lost it -- even if he had a 50% discount, he had to spend the money on rent, employees, insurance, and all that.

So how does Amazon do it? Part of it is volume, just like Walmart or Target. Another part, though, is that online sellers often do not risk any money on inventory. They only place an order with a book distributor after they've already collected money from you, the consumer. The book distributor has full returnability (like Clark was mentioning) -- they have the books on their shelves, ready to deliver to Amazon or B&N.com in a day or two, but if the books sell they just send them back to the publisher for a full refund.

If we got a bigger percentage of retail, yes, that would give us more money per item sold. BUT...we would have much higher costs, and without the market penetration and "sales force" of stores we would sell fewer copies -- the result being, we would probably come out behind in the end. Here at Atlas, we actually outsourced our mail order operations entirely -- it's now handled by Warehouse 23. We're actually making more money from mail order than we did before, because Warehouse 23 is focused on doing mail order sales, and they do it a lot better than we did. They have online ordering, people devoted to customer service, answering customer queries, etc; plus they combine orders for our games with orders for SJ Games and other products. In contrast, every time we did a mail order in the old days it interrupted other work. Warehouse 23 not only sells more books than we did doing mail order ourselves, but after taking their cut we actually make more profit from their sales than we did from our own, and with a fraction of the work!
 

JohnNephew said:


What if it saves you more than an hour in preparation time?

Do you apply the same measure to other things? E.g., would you spend more than 1 hour's worth of money to buy a dinner for you and your gaming friends?

As I do not place a monetary value on the time that I am not paid for, the fact that something may take me an hour more or less is fairly unimportant to me.

As long as I am spending my time doing something that I enjoy (with my children, reading, working on my campaign) I consider the time well spent.

Yes, I apply the same measure to other things. I do not make impulse purchases. I research each product that I am going to buy and make an informed decision. I very rarely purchase anything that I later regret owning.

If I was going to pay for a meal for my friends I would, more than likely, choose a location that had a fixed cost. Some type of buffet or the like. This would allow me to know, in advance, the price that I would have to pay.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

Abulia said:
Out of curiosity, how many publishers sit down and do a hard ROI model on their products or is pricing determined by looking at the market at large? "xx is a similar product and is priced $xx, so we'll do the same." Some combination of the two?

We use a combination of the two. Typically, we start with what looks like workable pricing in the market, and then we calculate a budget on the basis of what we think we can charge and how many we think we'll sell. If the numbers don't add up, the project doesn't get a green light. (Unless, that is, there's some justification for doing a project at a loss.) Naturally, the "how many we'll sell" is subject to change, especially in the d20 market, between when a project goes into development and when it's released.

If you're curious, I started a thread on RPG.net a few months back with a breakdown of expenses on an Ars Magica adventure we published earlier this year. It might give you an idea of some of the budgetary considerations an RPG publisher faces.
 

Thorin Stoutfoot said:

For instance, programmers at game companies accept wages at about $20-25,000 a year, while programmers at other jobs have a median of around $40,000 a year. I wouldn't consider a job in the game industry for that reason, but many folks do, get burned out after 5 years, and get replaced by a bunch of new faces. It's not ideal, but that's how it works.

This is a lot like the RPG industry. Except that RPG staffers are more likely to be making $15,000-$20,000 a year. Still, their skill set (writing, editing, graphic design, layout, customer service, web design, network administration, logistics, marketing, and what have you) would probably make them $30-$40k in a different business.

And, not surprisingly, there's a lot of turnover in the game industry. Talented people get to the point in their life (say, getting married and having children, or starting to worry about retirement) when they can no longer subsist on wages lower than they'd get working at Burger King, so they leave.
 

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