Payment of Writers

[BryonD]

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with this statement. Can a "decent" DM design an adventure that works for her party better than a randomly selected d20 adventure? Sure.

Can the same DM design a set of superhero rules as solidly as Steve Kenson? I suspect not. Can she draw maps as well as Todd Gamble, Chris West, or Rob Lee? I shouldn't think so. Can she whip up a sketch as evocative as a painting by Todd Lockwood? Of course not.

DMs are, of course, free to design their own material, but that doesn't mean that they have the free time to do it or that the final product will be as thoughtful, interesting, or balanced as the professional output of the RPG gaming industry.

God knows, I've sat through enough RPGA adventures written by "decent" DMs to know that there's often a wide gulf between what an average DM thinks is a good adventure and what gets published with color art and a nice binding.

--Erik

No offense Erik, but I think you are really over-rating your industry.

Sure, I can buy stuff that is "better" on a general acceptance level than what I can write. But I enjoy writing, even if it is only for myself. So if you want my money, you better have something that is vastly better than what I can do. Sometimes I find material that meets this standard. More often, I do not.

Art is nice, and it certainly adds to the professional look of a product and can be fun in its own way. But once I sit down to play, it really matters VERY little.

The superhero rules comment is pretty much off-topic. The great bulk of d20 material being produced is "expansion" type material. Base game system mechanics are a separate issue.

"Thoughtful" and even "balanced" are generally far less important than "interesting". Now if you want to tell me that you can write stuff that the general ENworld community finds more interesting than the stuff I write, then you are probably correct. But I promise you that I can consistently write stuff that my group finds more interesting than stuff you write, because I am writing for my group and I know them. And that is a big issue. At the end of the day, everyone decides to spend their money for their own game.

There are plenty of good ones waiting in the wings, but there are plenty of over-enthusiastic fans who continue the cycle of crap products waiting there, too.

Do you really mean this? The fans are to blame?

FWIW, all the 5 star reviews in the world failed to get me to drop $40 on BotR.

 

[tburdett]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

Let me clarify my point this way:

Some pirates say, "I do this because the publisher rips me off by charging too much."

In the end, I think we agree, to wit: We can't take the behavior of pirates much into account. They'll do it whether a book is $5 or $50, and (IMHO) make up excuses to make themselves feel justified in doing it either way. When it comes to figuring out what you need to charge as a publisher, forget them.

I have known people who download .pdf files and they have universally told me that they do it to evaluate the quality of the item before they make a purchasing decision. The price of the item has no bearing on their decision to download and evaluate it.

These are systems analysts, engineers, and university professors. Each of these individuals has a very substantial RPG collection and do not use the .pdf files in lieu of purchasing the actual product.

None of them actually print the product out, they merely examine it in its digital form to decide whether or not it is worthy of being purchased. They routinely delete the .pdf files for products that they decide to pass on.

This practice is probably further encouraged by the fact that many local retailers like to shrink-wrap RPG material, preventing the consumer from being able to adequately evaluate a product before purchasing it.

 

[JohnNephew]

As I do not place a monetary value on the time that I am not paid for, the fact that something may take me an hour more or less is fairly unimportant to me.

As long as I am spending my time doing something that I enjoy (with my children, reading, working on my campaign) I consider the time well spent.

Yes, I apply the same measure to other things. I do not make impulse purchases. I research each product that I am going to buy and make an informed decision. I very rarely purchase anything that I later regret owning.

You sound a lot like me. I like to buy used computer parts, for example, and tinker. I may spend $100 less on something, but spend more than $100 worth of my time getting it to work and integrate properly (say, an old generation of print server that requires me to find and configure a BOOTP server, when everyone uses DHCP these days). I realize that I'm being a bit economically irrational, and I justify it as a hobbyist kind of activity, playing with computer hardware.

Then again, if the computer industry rearranged its R&D, marketing, and pricing structure to suit me as the quintessential customer...they'd be in trouble.

 

[tburdett]

You sound a lot like me. I like to buy used computer parts, for example, and tinker. I may spend $100 less on something, but spend more than $100 worth of my time getting it to work and integrate properly (say, an old generation of print server that requires me to find and configure a BOOTP server, when everyone uses DHCP these days). I realize that I'm being a bit economically irrational, and I justify it as a hobbyist kind of activity, playing with computer hardware.

Then again, if the computer industry rearranged its R&D, marketing, and pricing structure to suit me as the quintessential customer...they'd be in trouble.

Uh oh!

I've seen the sun come up more than a few times when working on a computer project involving legacy hardware.

I really enjoy taking hardware that is considered useless, or obsolete, and building fully functional 'special purpose' machines.

Many people fail to realize that, when paired with the proper operating system and software, these machines have years of useful service left in them. Often the most difficult part of one of my projects is finding a legal copy of the operating system or software that I need. That's always a chore!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Do you really mean this? The fans are to blame?

Does he mean that he thinks fans are buying too much crap? Well, I agree, but are we really saying we wish folks would buy less?

Or does he mean that over-enthusiastic fans are producing too much crap? Should I assume he is referring to the "hobby" publisher?

I can only take this in the most sensible interpretation, which is that he wished that fans were more educated and discriminating in their purchases (presumably, by buying his stuff).


Wulf

 

[JohnNephew]

I really enjoy taking hardware that is considered useless, or obsolete, and building fully functional 'special purpose' machines.

I am so there!

I think this may be a trait common to a lot of GMs. We really enjoy tinkering; what a lot of people consider work, we consider recreation. This is a strange and inescapable dynamic in the RPG market, too -- a lot of projects that relieve the GM's or player's work have a narrow appeal, because for a lot of gamers that "work" is a large part of the hobby.

Still, as prepainted minis have demonstrated, there ARE people who are interested in the hobby without going all the way, or who are willing to shift the focus of their interest to another aspect of the hobby. (If you have only X hours for your hobby, how would you prefer those hours be spent? What part of the whole process gives you the most pleasure or fulfillment?)

In the computer hardware scene, an analogy would be my decision recently to buy a network attached storage server. We really needed something for the company, and something that would easily function cross-platform (we have Macs and PCs both), and after Michelle's iMac hard drive fried this summer I was even more paranoid than usual about the backups thing. I had long been thinking of running some kind of Linux set-up with Netatalk and Samba, probably hacking it out of various old hardware. Ultimately, I threw in the towel; I know I could have put it together (having spent some evening and weekend time playing with the Linux partition I'd craftily installed on Michelle's P4 at home, when I was giving it a bigger hard drive), but I decided I was better off devoting my efforts elsewhere. So I got a pre-built NAS machine, a Gateway device, rack-mount chassis, running a stripped-down Linux system with four IDE drives and RAID 5. Still, I did buy it on eBay, which meant it was $600 instead of $2000. If I hadn't been able to get a used/refurb one, I probably would have bit the bullet and brought a brand new one, smaller capacity, in the $800-$1200 range. I just have too much to do -- as much as I enjoy the nuts and bolts of figuring things out and making them work, sometimes I have to decide I am going to focus on a different level of figuring things out and making them work, and spend the money on something with a lot of the work already done for me.

A healthy market should have a wide range of options. All gamers are "do it yourselfers" to some degree. Some just want a core rulebook -- in fact, they don't need to buy anything, as they can download the SRD for free under the OGL, and make up their own experience point table. On the other hand, some people prioritize their recreational time in such a way that, for example, buying pre-made adventures and worlds gives them a lot of value. Spending $40 on a cool campaign book, or $15 on an adventure, and then spending the time available for gaming playing with friends rather than preparing for play, may be a great value for their money and time. To others, it might seem a silly waste of money.

Just like with computers; some people want a brand new hard drive with a warranty and a tech support number (if not a technician to install it) -- some of us are happy to pick up cast-off hardware, track down the jumper settings to configure SCSI ID and other options, and risk zapping our hardware with static electricity when we aren't careful.

 

[Deamoclese]

just like to add..

As a "low income" earner, I thought I'd just like to make a few points.

First, I am a journalist (specializing in law enforcement) and am all to aware of the woes of a freelance writer. There are only two kinds: Those that succeed and those that starve... there are seldom any in between (I starved as a freelancer until I got a 'real' job).

However, even as an employee, I am paid pittance... writers frequently are. I make $23,000 annually (gross income). Mind you, that pay cheque comes in those wonderful shiny Canadian dollars (I live in Toronto). So you can only imagine how much that is in US dollars.

From what I understand, many of my brothers-in-arms to the south suffer the same problem I do. So I certainly can see, hear and understand the pain that RPG writers (freelancers) go through in terms of making 2-4 cents or so per word.

At the same time, one need only look at the cost hardcover novels in major bookstores. Most cost around $39-$49 (Canadian) for a mere 300 or so page novel.. no art, maps, diagrams, etc.. no colour either on the inside.

D20 products on the other hand cost $45 Canadian if it's a hardcover book. Some cost less, around $39 and rarely sometimes $29 (player's handbook for DnD --- paperback accessories, modules, etc usually cost $20-$25). And in nearly all d20 hardcover books, you get around the same number of pages as a novel (on larger paper) with glossy paper usually, full colour (usually) and many, many illustrationsm, diagrams, maps, etc. Yet they still cost less than novels? This seems wrong.

For that reason I can definately understand raising the cost of DnD books somewhat. You simply are getting far more than you would from a novel, but the cost doesn't reflect it (not that I'm complaining ) Far more work tends to go into a D20 published item (if it isn't a piece of crap whipped together by some half-wit and published by some dumb schmuck publisher... which seems far too frequent these days) and the cost, theoretically, should reflect that.

However, while I don't know how far US dollars go in terms of purchashing power, Canadian dollars are beginning to make the peso look good. Most of the good DnD books I buy are 45 bucks, and that is a heapin' load of cash for a Caker like me (and most others that are low to lower-middle class earners). I struggle just to purchase the few books I do buy. I fear that a price increase would force me to severely cut back how many (good) books I buy... not because I don't want to pay the increase.. but because I CAN'T. Many of the 9 people I know who play DnD as well are in the exact same boat (computer programmers, biology majors, criminology majors, and electrical engineers with 5 years or more of university education, can't afford any DnD books on their pitiful income).

Nevertheless, I continue to support the idea of paying writers more for their D20 work, even if it means higher costs (and thus likely much of the business from this Canadian customer) because at least, with some hope, it will encourage the industry in general to perhaps pay writers more (especially professionals, such as myself, that went to college or university for many years to become highly skilled at what they do).

Just don't be surprised if you see a few Canadian customers fall of the charts when books become $60 (Can.).... not that I really know if Canadian customers are even of much significance to d20 publishers

 

[Cergorach]

You can tell them several things. First, WotC can charge that much because they do print runs ten times larger than the biggest d20 company on products like the FRCS. Their cost per unit is much lower than mine, so they can afford to do color books for $40. You can also point out that Book of the Righteous is the price of two WotC class books (Tome and Blood, etc.) but contains 3-4 times the material.

I know that, you know that, i might even get the customer to listen to that, but the bottom line is still the comparison between FRCS vs. TBoR. When the customer compares prices for products (as they always do) they'll say that the FRCS is greater value, because it's in color and has a nice color map (and it's made by those D&D people ;-). Comparing smaller books vs. a larger book doesn't make sense, because if that was true, people wouldn't buy the small books.

Second, Book of the Righteous has more utility than FRCS. FRCS only has value if you plan to run a campaign there, whereas the material in BotR can be used in nearly any campaign setting.

Yes and no, FRCS is a campaign setting, true, and only interesting to people who are willing to start a campaign there. You would be suprised how many 'new' players are atracted to FR due to it's huge background and pretty pictures. TBoR is only usefull for DMs and only those DMs that don't yet have a pantheon for their world, do not plan to make their own, and are willing to use TBoR. Again the botom line is that TBoR will sell a lot less than FRCS because FRCS is aimed at players as well as DMS and TBoR is primarily aimed at DMs (although some players might be interested in reading a bit about the god they follow, but at $40 it's not great utility for a player).

I think your first question ought to be, "Are you using a published campaign setting?" If so, point them to the FR, Scarred Lands, or another appropriate book. If they are not, Book of the Righteous is a much better purchase for them.

Is it? Deities and Demigods is more than a listing of a few Gods, it's a rule system for 'creating' Gods. Often these days a lot of people are really interested in the crunchy bits and Deities and Demigods delivers them those crunchy bits. TBoR is as much a 'published' setting as any other campaign setting. If people want a 'hot-plugable' pantheon for their setting, i give them a couple of choices:
- Deities and Demigods (D&D) [224 pages, color, hardcover, $29.95]
- Faiths and Pantheons (FRCS) [224 pages, color, hardcover, $32.95]
- The Divine and the Deveated (SSS) [232 pages, b&w, hardcover, $26.95]
- Gods (AEG) [160 pages, b&w, softcover, $24.95]
- The Book of the Righteous (GRP) [320 pages, b&w, hardcover, $39.95]
Compared to the other God books, TBoR does pretty reasonable (the AEG book not taken into account), but if people want their books in full color they'l probably go with either of the WotC books, even the SSS book gives more pages for the buck. I think it all comes down to what people are looking for...

Clark has the luxury of being distributed by White Wolf. Most d20 companies don't. Clark also has the luxury of running his company as a hobby. I need to provide for my family and the rest of the GR team. I seek customer goodwill by providing the highest quality material that I can, using name authors and top line artists, and continuing to try to make my products look and play better. Book of the Righteous was a milestone book for us and Mutants & Masterminds will be another one.

Ok, this is going to sound harsh, but that's the world for you. My customers aren't going to care that you and your family are living in poverty, they want the best bang for their buck. Same goes for a lot of retailers, they don't know you, they don't care.

Now, i'm not contesting the quality of your products, far from it (high, high quality its is), but what i am trying to make clear that the market isn't "We will make it, we will price it, and they will come.". By making 'expensive' products you are only taking a niche in a niche market.

I'm not your average gamer, i buy a LOT and don't mind paying reasonable extra for added value, but i'm the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Cergorach]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

In the end, I think we agree, to wit: We can't take the behavior of pirates much into account. They'll do it whether a book is $5 or $50, and (IMHO) make up excuses to make themselves feel justified in doing it either way. When it comes to figuring out what you need to charge as a publisher, forget them.

I think we're on the same line (although i come from the other side of the fence ;-).

But, yes, you have to disregard the largest part of the pirates, but you should not forget the 'borderline' cases. Those who actually do think and find that certain products are to expensive for them after a price raise and result to scanned (or better yet OCRed) copies instead of buying them (the added value of owning a product is lost to them after a certain price raise). As a publisher you have to make the guess wheter that would be a large portion or not and wheter that portion would make a difference, chances are it is not. But those numbers have to be added to the number of people who don't buy your product because it's to expensive compared to others (WotC setting the bar).

Also by adding value, such as color, hardcover, poster maps, etc. You make the step of relying on scanned/illegal copies to buying legal copies a lot smaller.

 

[Cergorach]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Higher prices?

I have to say, the industry distributor chain must be incredibly inefficient for this to happen. I usually see books sold at 30% off on Amazon.com (and I typically manage to an additional 5% by using the special credit card), plus free shipping. That means that on average, at least 35% of the cover price goes into the wholesale/retail distribution chain!

Doesn't that mean that if publishers somehow managed to capture that extra 35%, you could pay writers more AND have better profits?

Ok, i get a standard 40% off, and aditional 4% when ordering three or more of the same, and an aditional 3% for using a special payment option. As a result i come really close to the 45%-50% off line (it's even btter for WotC titles, but have to order a lot more). But as an electronic retailer i don't really have any employees at the moment, don't have a huge storefront (can actually fit the entire store in a small 2mx2m room), and don't have to spend all that inefficent time at my store. As a result i don't have that much overhead compared to traditional stores. Just ask your local store owner what he has to pay on monthly rent (in big cities it's even more scarry).

Also, i was aiming at a 30% off deal at my online store, but i really had a run in with my local game supplier (huge fight, not pretty). After the 'interference' of my distributor i decided to settle (for now) at 20% off, but neither the distributor nor the traditional retailer where happy about that (distributor was saying something about devalueing products by giving 'huge' discounts). That's the game that's played...