Payn's Ponderings; System mastery and the concept of fair fight.

[innerdude]

My favorite system, Savage Worlds, has 2 very specific breaking points that can be exacerbated by extreme optimization---difficulty to hit (Parry) and difficulty to damage (Toughness + Armor).

And what makes it worse at times is that the two are often correlated. PC builds that optimize high parry (fighting skill + shields + feats) generally also optimize for toughness (high Vigor score + armor).

Now, is it possible to get into an arms race with the players? I mean, sure. It's trivial to throw high parry + high toughness foes at a party with equivalent PC builds. But if the players are unwilling to self-moderate at any level on min-maxing, it quickly devolves.

 

[bloodtide]

Love of system mastery and the fair gamers sure are common gamers. After all they come from the ranks of video, card, wargame players and the board game, classic game, sports players.

Though note both groups have the same mindset of success only under absolute rules. And this is a big break for me vs most other gamers. They both only want to use a select set of rules they say are "offical" and they only want to play under a game style set up for them to win.

The card playing system master gamers only want to use "some" decks. "Everyone" will agree "expansion pack five" is badwrongfun and donot use. And you must follow the strict game rules 100%.

The sports or chess player wants that illusion of fairness...under strict rules.

Both of the play types do fall apart in a RPG.....because RPGs are unique. The big huge special part of RPGs is that they are more then "just a game of rules". Or, at least they can be.

Take just last weekend. The System Mastery and Fair Game players have their characters hunting goblins in some ruins. When they encounter a mud pit trap. Now what they are expecting is an "oh no a trap, roll a DC 12 to escape". And then each player will roll nearly automatically to escape and go "wow what a trap". Of course, in my game style they fall into the trap no save and then find it hard to get out...even harder when the goblins attack.

Put a couple PCs in a mud pit trap where they can't just "roll to escape", and things fall apart fast. This is that third part of RPGS, that reality simulation part.

 

[DragonLancer]

I'm not one for system mastery. Optimisation isn't always the way to go. There are discussions on these very forums from twenty years ago when one of my friends in our D&D3 campaign started to cause issues because he optimised and the rest of us didn't play that way.

I much prefer a simpler game. There is a reason why I have great memories of basic D&D, 1st edition and 2nd, because they weren't games that focused on being the best of the best of the best. We told stories and ran through grand quests. I'm more for a story driven game over one of optimisation.

After 15 years of Pathfinder I am finally done with the mechanical system and it has drawn me back to D&D with the new 2024 rules.

 

[payn]

Love of system mastery and the fair gamers sure are common gamers. After all they come from the ranks of video, card, wargame players and the board game, classic game, sports players.

Though note both groups have the same mindset of success only under absolute rules. And this is a big break for me vs most other gamers. They both only want to use a select set of rules they say are "offical" and they only want to play under a game style set up for them to win.

The card playing system master gamers only want to use "some" decks. "Everyone" will agree "expansion pack five" is badwrongfun and donot use. And you must follow the strict game rules 100%.

The sports or chess player wants that illusion of fairness...under strict rules.

Both of the play types do fall apart in a RPG.....because RPGs are unique. The big huge special part of RPGs is that they are more then "just a game of rules". Or, at least they can be.

Take just last weekend. The System Mastery and Fair Game players have their characters hunting goblins in some ruins. When they encounter a mud pit trap. Now what they are expecting is an "oh no a trap, roll a DC 12 to escape". And then each player will roll nearly automatically to escape and go "wow what a trap". Of course, in my game style they fall into the trap no save and then find it hard to get out...even harder when the goblins attack.

Put a couple PCs in a mud pit trap where they can't just "roll to escape", and things fall apart fast. This is that third part of RPGS, that reality simulation part.

I mean, there is nothing about an escape attempt not being part of simulation rules. Anytime somebody invokes "simulating reality in a magic elf game" you know things are about to completely fall apart.

 

[Theory of Games]

TL: DR Folks are drawn into RPGs by system mastery and/or the concept of a fair match. Some lean heavily on one or the other. How about you?

I don't see a major difference between the two: both have a playstyle that is dominated by rules. Definitely more so than Story-gamer or Method actor playstyles that lean more towards improvisational narration.

I prefer having an extensive ruleset that covers everything I want to do in an adventure, which is why I enjoy GURPS. That system provides a malleable structure that empowers rules enthusiasts and storytellers.

 

[Older Beholder]

But 5E seems to have this pervasive concept of fairness (in all encounters), and for me at least, it's not a priority.

For example, my 2nd level players encountered a young green dragon. They had an opportunity to run, but they jumped into the fight (because of the presumption of fairness and balance). It didn't end well.

I'm pretty sure the 5E starter set 'Lost Mines...' has an encounter with a Young Green Dragon that players can run into around level 2 or 3.

 

[FrogReaver]

Everyone wants a fair game and everyone wants some degree of optimization.

What fair means will greatly vary from person to person. What optimization is too much such that it interferes with the other enjoyable aspects of an RPG also varies.

 

[payn]

Everyone wants a fair game and everyone wants some degree of optimization.

What fair means will greatly vary from person to person. What optimization is too much such that it interferes with the other enjoyable aspects of an RPG also varies.

Yes, of course, what's the right mix for you?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm pretty sure the 5E starter set 'Lost Mines...' has an encounter with a Young Green Dragon that players can run into around level 2 or 3.

Last really great starter adventure in official D&D IMO.

 

[Older Beholder]

Last really great starter adventure in official D&D IMO.

So, you liked Lost Mines more than Stormwreck Isle?
When we played through them, my DM had mixed the two together, so I couldn't tell you what was from what.

Is there any other starter set for 5E? I guess there were the ones for Stranger Things and Rick and Morty, but I never really counted them.