pc classes as enemies

[Turtlejay]

Even NPC's biuld from the DMG can be deadly. I set my PC's against an 'anitparty' of Eladrin NPC's, 1:1. In the first two rounds they were set pretty low. Because NPC's get a daily, but are only supposed to survive for an encounter, you *know* they are gonna use it, and quickly. So be careful even with the NPC's.

I see no problem with using the character creator to make yourself a fully statted adversary, but from there you need to throw out about half of what you just created, and make a more streamlined version to set against the PC's in combat.

I'd use the rules in the book, and Asmor's monster builder to make yourself a pretty stat block. I suppose you could use the character creator beta, but I haven't tried it, so I can't reccomend it...

Jay

 

[Destil]

I see 3 pronlems when using PCs builds to create NPCs, both playtested in DnD and OnLine MMOrpgs:

1 - The PC would rapdily destroy a PC. Initiative , surprise and the like would count too much in my opinion. Many people pointed this before me.

2 - "Real PCs" usually spend some of their resourses (including feats etc.) that are not very effective if they would be "on the other side of the table". Thats include flavor decisions and stuff that increases healing surges and survivability in general. (Durable Feat for example). That would make "DM PCs" more effective in general, focused on "1 big combat".

3- Daily powers would never be balanced, becuse "real PCs" usually have to decide when and where to use them, specially if they have multiple encounters. Let' s be honest: "DM's PCs" would probably aways have their daily stuff ready to unleash.

You can easily build around the first two limitations, however. Don't metagame the badguys. Give them sub-optimal feats and powers in some cases, mark off some dailies and have them try and hold others in reserve et cetera.

Why does everyone in this thread assume the DM is such a bad metagamer compared to the other players?

Point 1 is a problem, and they will be complex to run. For recurring villains the complexity may be a good thing, though, and if they have a decent sense of self-preservation and good escape plans it could lead to a very interesting fight, and a fairly a-typical one.

On that note, the Class templates in the DMG are still great, and I highly recommend them if you just want a player class feel.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Why does everyone in this thread assume the DM is such a bad metagamer compared to the other players?

Quite frankly, the guy was asking rule based opinions. I am not assuming anything, in fact I told i have used this method myself with perilous results.

I was just pointing out possible problem, so the fellow could decide.

I still think the daily powers are the major issue. Please note that MM creatures don't have them for a reason.

 

[Votan]

You can easily build around the first two limitations, however. Don't metagame the badguys. Give them sub-optimal feats and powers in some cases, mark off some dailies and have them try and hold others in reserve et cetera.

Why does everyone in this thread assume the DM is such a bad metagamer compared to the other players?

While this is quite possible, the tihing that I liked the least in 3.X was spending ahuge amount of time building an NPC. Just making solid choices is usually faster than building a "backstory" compatible PC. So I'd start to think about total effort to do this . . .